The Power of Play and Seeing the Kid Beyond the Behavior

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week three of our new video podcast I’m

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super excited to be talking to Mary

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Russell we have had the privilege of

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working together a lot lately and I’m

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super excited about talking to you for a

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bunch of reasons I had a really hard

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time narrowing down the topic so we are

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actually gonna talk about a few

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different things I’m hoping one of the

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things I thought would be really great

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is if you could explain your role and

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what you do I am a child and family

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counselor I work with the Sequoias try

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but I also work in private practice and

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the population that you work with well

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you work with lots of different people

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don’t you yeah but mostly families and

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kids and I have a lot of clients kid the

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kids are transgender and a lot of kids

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that have trauma related needs and a lot

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of kids and various spots in foster care

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or adoption and the work that we have

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done together one of the one of the

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target topics I’m just going to launch

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right into is had the work I do now as a

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regulation resilience coach I love it

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when I have the opportunity to not only

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work with a family and kids but to also

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work in conjunction with a mental health

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professional in supporting a family and

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kids and that has been something we have

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gotten to do and I I love that and I

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thought we could talk a little bit about

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how we work together to support a family

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and what the difference between B and

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coaching is okay that’s a great idea

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yeah yeah so maybe you could talk about

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how you support families as a start and

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then how I get involved as a support to

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that yeah um I think that you are the

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first regulation coach mentor kind of

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person

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and to work with and I wish that every

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kid that I worked with had a tough for

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sure but yeah my role is to like meet

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the kid and assess the where the kid and

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the family are at and assess the what’s

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occurred in the past so a lot of times

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with kids I’m getting stacks of

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paperwork from the like from courts

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enforcer care agencies so kind of like

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compiling this history and then sorting

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out what we can tell this kid has been

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through and then what would be helpful

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now and working with the parent on

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making space for both helping this kid

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process what they’ve endured and out

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like how do we parent how can I cut you

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in parenting this child now with what

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they have going on and lots of room

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through play for the kids to process

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their trauma and you’ve pretty much stay

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for kids that are in the foster care

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system you will stay with the kiddo

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right you’ll like move with them yeah

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through from placement to placement

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often yeah I have kids who’ve been

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through seven placements and I’m the one

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constant yeah so important and then and

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so we have come to work together when I

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have gotten called to support a kiddo

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at home in crisis so I sometimes will

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get called in to support a family in the

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home in the first originally that’s

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sometimes how I’m how I get in touch

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with a family is there will be

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identified attachment and trauma related

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challenges and I come in as somebody who

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has been there and has been through the

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experience of learning the nuances of

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parenting a child with attachment and

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trauma related stuff and work with

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parents to kind of make the paradigm

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shifts and understand what the different

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kind of needs are and what approaches

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work with kids and then work with kids

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to sort of get regulated and build

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resilience at home and it’s really great

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when we get to work together because

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then it feels like we’ve got this

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holistic approach to support a family

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that I know I would have loved to have

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or I did love when I did have that I did

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have that early on for my kids but it

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was really hard to come by

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yeah um so that’s been a really that’s

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really really neat thing and I know that

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for myself one of the things that made

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me really excited about having you on

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this whatever this is on this video

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podcast is that you are a mental health

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professional that really understands the

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impact of trauma on neurology and that

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behavior is brain based and I think that

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that is part of what makes their well

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it’s a lot of what makes their behavior

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so much different and maybe you could

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talk a little bit about how that those

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brain based differences translates into

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how kids play

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yeah well all kids are communicating a

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story about their internal world when

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they’re playing and they are my belief

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is that people are really wired to heal

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so when I am watching kids play in

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session or just everywhere in the world

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that you get to see kids play which

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they’re always doing they’re trying to

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sort through something and

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for some kids with trauma related needs

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some kids are that I’m and like 8 min at

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different ages like 3 4 & 8 like I’m

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saying kids that kind of don’t know how

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to play like they didn’t have the

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opportunity to there was so much chaos

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and danger that they were kind of in

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this frozen the frozen part of the

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trauma response and didn’t have

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opportunities or were prenta fied really

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young they had to be little adults

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pretty early on yes with kids it’s

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almost like I’m teaching them how to

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play or not teaching them I’m like

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getting the things out of the way that

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get in the way of their innate knowing

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right it usually comes out they get into

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it right or figuring out the way that

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they do play like the playroom with toys

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is too overwhelming but maybe that kid

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more outside you can see the play come

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out like if you kick a ball or right do

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you I this is just a question that’s

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always on my mind I wonder if other

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parents have struggled with this I know

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for me for example and I’m just gonna

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just say for me there were certain areas

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of play that when my with my daughter

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and we’ve talked about this now she’s an

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adult but um that when there were

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certain ways that she played and certain

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things that she played that really got

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to me what was hard for me I had a

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really hard time with it

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um and do you see that a lot yeah I I

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think that I think that it can be really

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good when you’re teamed up with a

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therapist early on and you’re

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articulating this I think there’s a lot

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of way that play can be hard for adults

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and that your sense of like this thing

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is too much for me to really honor it

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and have language around like this is a

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really good activity to do with your

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counselor right because a lot of the

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like violence kind of shuts parents down

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sometimes kids will be doing they’ll be

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sexually acting out with toys and it’s

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overwhelming to the kids

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yeah those are the two the violence and

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the sexual acting out and those are

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great for the therapist to wrap into

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their treatment yeah and and you’re

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being authentic with your kid and cuz

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your kid can read when you get

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uncomfortable for all this tensing up or

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you kind of stop breathing your kid can

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feel that so it helps them attune to

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themselves and realize you’re tuned to

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them when you’re like wow this is a

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really this is a really good part of the

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play to take to your session on Tuesday

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yeah I wish I had known that because

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really with my with my daughter it was

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really around dolls when she was playing

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with dolls yeah that dolls or Barbies or

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something like that I just had this body

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response of it just got to me because

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and and what I realized for me what it

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was was that her way of playing with

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dolls was having power over them and it

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wasn’t you know it wasn’t anything

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specific it was just the general way

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that she played with dolls was very

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power over and it and it really did put

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me into a different state in it so and I

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didn’t know then what was going on for

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me then but I did end up finally talking

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to a therapist about it but honestly if

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I’m being really transparent I really

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tried to avoid her playing with dolls

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you know and and I really regret that I

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feel like I really that was a really bad

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call on my part

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early on I wish I had known better

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because now that I know so much more

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about brain development and and recovery

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I know that that play was so important

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burger right and and that but it was

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also good that you listen to yourself

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and you work because like her saying if

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you weren’t fully there so it’s worse

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off that kids can feels like struggling

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through something because they could

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perceive it as you’re not delighting

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me right really you’re triggered like

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yeah yeah and and I think that is a

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great like segue into the idea of

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parents getting triggered you know like

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just parents getting triggered in

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general and and being able to learn how

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to manage when you get triggered right I

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think there’s so much I like the

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community that you’re in where people

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get to talk about that it like like the

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other thing honest about what’s hard

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about parenting and but I see all these

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things that are like why it’s important

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to place your kid and and I don’t hear

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people addressing why it really sucks to

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play sometimes even though and a lot of

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people really hate it and it does bring

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up a lot and I think for people who have

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Trump adults you have trauma or weren’t

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allowed to play as kids it’s like they

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don’t know how to play and they don’t

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know how to let go and if you have

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parents with addiction stuff it can be

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really hard to let go of being serious

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because that is the best way you know

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how to feel validated was to be hyper

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serious so somebody needing to play with

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you it that creates this inner turmoil

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and kids can feel it absolutely and I

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think I you you saying that just you

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know so many people that I know and even

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myself included there are certain things

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I think it’s so such a broad thing ii

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don’t know what is gonna trigger you or

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what is gonna get to you as a kid i was

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a very fearful child like i was a very

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cautious and fearful child my daughter

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however super adventurous and

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adventure-seeking and risk-seeking

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so when it came to things that required

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risk you know and she was all in and

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ready to take risk i would get really

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scared no and I would have to like like

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for example riding a bike I did not

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expect that it was gonna be a like total

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problem for me to teach her how to ride

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00:13:12,940 –> 00:13:24,910
a bike mm-hmm but it was I had to walk

262
00:13:15,370 –> 00:13:33,310
my husband was like you go inside now it

263
00:13:24,910 –> 00:13:35,440
was like I just became this like it we

264
00:13:33,310 –> 00:13:37,660
can it can be this certain activity that

265
00:13:35,440 –> 00:13:40,750
it can also be the age that they are so

266
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and your kid being nine just them being

267
00:13:40,750 –> 00:13:46,180
nine can activate any wounding you had

268
00:13:43,089 –> 00:13:48,279
at nine unfinished business you have

269
00:13:46,180 –> 00:13:51,399
from being nine this was like really

270
00:13:48,279 –> 00:13:54,610
anything becomes an opportunity to be

271
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triggered which hopefully that

272
00:13:54,610 –> 00:13:58,899
understanding can give us even more

273
00:13:56,290 –> 00:14:01,060
capacity freshing but for kids like how

274
00:13:58,899 –> 00:14:05,829
anything how they anything can be a

275
00:14:01,060 –> 00:14:09,250
trigger to them you know right and I

276
00:14:05,829 –> 00:14:11,140
think to another thing along those lines

277
00:14:09,250 –> 00:14:15,040
that I that I noticed that a lot of

278
00:14:11,140 –> 00:14:18,640
parents get kind of stuck in I think

279
00:14:15,040 –> 00:14:24,290
when our kids are doing saying playing

280
00:14:18,640 –> 00:14:26,899
in ways that are that that

281
00:14:24,290 –> 00:14:30,410
things for us that’s when we get locked

282
00:14:26,899 –> 00:14:33,079
down as parents right that’s when when

283
00:14:30,410 –> 00:14:38,709
we’re under those that stress that’s

284
00:14:33,079 –> 00:14:43,009
when we are not as skillful that’s know

285
00:14:38,709 –> 00:14:45,620
well and also for yeah exactly and to

286
00:14:43,009 –> 00:14:48,230
add to that I think a lot of times with

287
00:14:45,620 –> 00:14:50,870
people who are raising kids who are

288
00:14:48,230 –> 00:14:53,000
going to like struggle more in the world

289
00:14:50,870 –> 00:14:55,250
there’s like this protectiveness where

290
00:14:53,000 –> 00:14:57,829
you’re like I want my kid you know we’re

291
00:14:55,250 –> 00:14:59,089
animals and we want our we want our kid

292
00:14:57,829 –> 00:15:00,980
to fit in the pack so they don’t get

293
00:14:59,089 –> 00:15:05,000
pushed out of the pack and start you

294
00:15:00,980 –> 00:15:06,889
know it’s like it’s very this primal

295
00:15:05,000 –> 00:15:09,319
response so if our kids being what we

296
00:15:06,889 –> 00:15:12,050
perceive is like super weird or super

297
00:15:09,319 –> 00:15:14,180
difficult in play we want to like clamp

298
00:15:12,050 –> 00:15:16,519
down on it like I want you to be

299
00:15:14,180 –> 00:15:19,130
accepted in the world so if kids are

300
00:15:16,519 –> 00:15:23,540
being like harsh or weird or really

301
00:15:19,130 –> 00:15:24,649
competitive or um like you like you’re

302
00:15:23,540 –> 00:15:27,639
saying with your daughter it was like

303
00:15:24,649 –> 00:15:30,230
her her power over stuff when really she

304
00:15:27,639 –> 00:15:32,269
she needed to go through that cycle so

305
00:15:30,230 –> 00:15:34,730
she was do would do it less in the world

306
00:15:32,269 –> 00:15:38,149
it’s like that was her spot to do it and

307
00:15:34,730 –> 00:15:41,720
I’m sure she found other ways so oh yeah

308
00:15:38,149 –> 00:15:45,829
we’ll find another way they will um I

309
00:15:41,720 –> 00:15:47,990
know that we can just let if we can just

310
00:15:45,829 –> 00:15:51,050
let our kids be a little bit terrible in

311
00:15:47,990 –> 00:15:52,699
the play or a little bit violent if it’s

312
00:15:51,050 –> 00:15:54,319
like sometimes it’s like if they can get

313
00:15:52,699 –> 00:15:55,970
it out here it’s like they saw it maybe

314
00:15:54,319 –> 00:15:57,860
they saw violence in their life or they

315
00:15:55,970 –> 00:16:00,260
saw it in a game and they need to get

316
00:15:57,860 –> 00:16:04,010
out so it doesn’t come out another way

317
00:16:00,260 –> 00:16:09,279
with another kid yeah and and I think

318
00:16:04,010 –> 00:16:12,319
that’s so great to hear a professional

319
00:16:09,279 –> 00:16:14,569
give that perspective because I think as

320
00:16:12,319 –> 00:16:16,459
parents we go ooh they’re playing like

321
00:16:14,569 –> 00:16:19,699
that they’re gonna do that for real

322
00:16:16,459 –> 00:16:23,360
right yeah right yeah because there’s a

323
00:16:19,699 –> 00:16:24,829
pressure to to play and be a fun parent

324
00:16:23,360 –> 00:16:26,839
but you also have the pressure to teach

325
00:16:24,829 –> 00:16:30,709
a social skill and it’s hard to know

326
00:16:26,839 –> 00:16:31,250
when to do which it absolutely is you’re

327
00:16:30,709 –> 00:16:34,569
right

328
00:16:31,250 –> 00:16:34,569
that’s like trigonometry

329
00:16:35,150 –> 00:16:41,160
so hard

330
00:16:37,760 –> 00:16:48,840
but my recommendation to parents would

331
00:16:41,160 –> 00:16:54,860
be get do the play and then do the play

332
00:16:48,840 –> 00:16:54,860
and then do the social skill yeah yeah

333
00:16:57,170 –> 00:17:10,589
oh he asked about violent video games I

334
00:17:08,329 –> 00:17:12,780
don’t know I think that they kind of

335
00:17:10,589 –> 00:17:14,550
work for some kids it seems I I don’t

336
00:17:12,780 –> 00:17:16,440
know I I don’t quite have an answer that

337
00:17:14,550 –> 00:17:19,079
one cuz I noticed that it seems

338
00:17:16,440 –> 00:17:23,640
cathartic for some kids and then it some

339
00:17:19,079 –> 00:17:28,380
kids talking it’s family my family I

340
00:17:23,640 –> 00:17:31,500
think it’s brain by brain yeah no I

341
00:17:28,380 –> 00:17:34,170
think a lot of kids there are some kids

342
00:17:31,500 –> 00:17:37,530
that I what I’ve observed is that some

343
00:17:34,170 –> 00:17:40,370
kids can’t do it at all and just

344
00:17:37,530 –> 00:17:44,310
activates complete dysregulation

345
00:17:40,370 –> 00:17:46,830
completely focus on you you immediately

346
00:17:44,310 –> 00:17:50,010
after the game you see and hear exactly

347
00:17:46,830 –> 00:17:52,980
what’s in the game and that some kids

348
00:17:50,010 –> 00:17:55,920
are able to separate it and it not do

349
00:17:52,980 –> 00:17:58,200
that for them some kids it’s a it’s a

350
00:17:55,920 –> 00:18:02,010
like you said it’s a it’s almost a

351
00:17:58,200 –> 00:18:04,530
regulator if it’s it’s like I got to

352
00:18:02,010 –> 00:18:09,000
have control this time so it can be

353
00:18:04,530 –> 00:18:12,090
cathartic yeah and then and then some

354
00:18:09,000 –> 00:18:14,400
kids it’s all about how much time you

355
00:18:12,090 –> 00:18:17,820
know like it’s not too long or if it’s

356
00:18:14,400 –> 00:18:21,090
not you know yeah it’s and or the timing

357
00:18:17,820 –> 00:18:22,770
in the day like if it’s you know I think

358
00:18:21,090 –> 00:18:29,010
there’s just a lot of nuance to that

359
00:18:22,770 –> 00:18:31,890
yeah I work with parents and I know you

360
00:18:29,010 –> 00:18:34,140
work with parents a lot on new

361
00:18:31,890 –> 00:18:38,100
approaches and different approaches

362
00:18:34,140 –> 00:18:40,560
because of different neurology right or

363
00:18:38,100 –> 00:18:43,170
addressing neurology in a different way

364
00:18:40,560 –> 00:18:47,300
because the neurology is different yeah

365
00:18:43,170 –> 00:18:49,200
then under stress going back to those

366
00:18:47,300 –> 00:18:51,900
feelings that you were talking about

367
00:18:49,200 –> 00:18:58,320
before if I want my kid to fit in yeah

368
00:18:51,900 –> 00:19:00,870
you know and any I you know ideas and

369
00:18:58,320 –> 00:19:03,360
tips for sort of breathing through that

370
00:19:00,870 –> 00:19:07,170
or recognizing when they’re doing that

371
00:19:03,360 –> 00:19:11,070
and how to get through that yeah I I

372
00:19:07,170 –> 00:19:12,950
think you I think well it’s it’s tricky

373
00:19:11,070 –> 00:19:15,930
and this time of copán her parents are

374
00:19:12,950 –> 00:19:18,660
there on duty all day and they used to

375
00:19:15,930 –> 00:19:20,940
be on duty for six hours at the end of

376
00:19:18,660 –> 00:19:25,170
the day or something so such a

377
00:19:20,940 –> 00:19:27,870
difference now but I think as much as

378
00:19:25,170 –> 00:19:32,010
parents can pause and get regulated

379
00:19:27,870 –> 00:19:34,530
first so it can be helpful with kids if

380
00:19:32,010 –> 00:19:36,660
there is a structured for some kids

381
00:19:34,530 –> 00:19:38,670
neurology a structured playtime so this

382
00:19:36,660 –> 00:19:40,800
like this is me and you it’s our special

383
00:19:38,670 –> 00:19:44,010
playtime it doesn’t actually have to be

384
00:19:40,800 –> 00:19:45,660
super long and but before if parents

385
00:19:44,010 –> 00:19:47,520
can’t what I didn’t had a parent be like

386
00:19:45,660 –> 00:19:49,140
I just had to drink coffee before like I

387
00:19:47,520 –> 00:19:52,500
just wasn’t bringing anything Susie

388
00:19:49,140 –> 00:19:55,410
Azzam to it or my trauma made it so I

389
00:19:52,500 –> 00:19:57,600
went kind of like I would kind of shut

390
00:19:55,410 –> 00:20:02,160
down before so I just kind of need to

391
00:19:57,600 –> 00:20:07,670
get myself get myself in the game yeah

392
00:20:02,160 –> 00:20:09,120
need to do to get regulated breathe

393
00:20:07,670 –> 00:20:11,070
right

394
00:20:09,120 –> 00:20:12,990
trying to come I mean if you’re working

395
00:20:11,070 –> 00:20:14,730
with the therapist then you can comfort

396
00:20:12,990 –> 00:20:16,680
your you know or on your own you can

397
00:20:14,730 –> 00:20:19,650
comfort your little kid parts that are

398
00:20:16,680 –> 00:20:21,240
getting activated in the play because we

399
00:20:19,650 –> 00:20:24,570
actually really have an opportunity to

400
00:20:21,240 –> 00:20:26,970
heal with our kids which is pretty

401
00:20:24,570 –> 00:20:28,740
amazing it’s pretty amazing yeah they’ll

402
00:20:26,970 –> 00:20:35,970
bring they’ll bring to light anything

403
00:20:28,740 –> 00:20:38,640
but stairs I didn’t even know that it

404
00:20:35,970 –> 00:20:42,030
was I mean you don’t even know things

405
00:20:38,640 –> 00:20:44,580
that are gonna yeah no stone left

406
00:20:42,030 –> 00:20:53,400
unturned is that what this thing is like

407
00:20:44,580 –> 00:21:01,020
yes yes also wondered about in terms of

408
00:20:53,400 –> 00:21:05,270
play therapy play how how when if your

409
00:21:01,020 –> 00:21:10,940
parent and you’re seeing your kids maybe

410
00:21:05,270 –> 00:21:13,890
do or say alarming things during play

411
00:21:10,940 –> 00:21:15,960
what to do about that because I have

412
00:21:13,890 –> 00:21:18,540
that happen I have I get that question a

413
00:21:15,960 –> 00:21:22,320
lot as a coach like what do I do I saw

414
00:21:18,540 –> 00:21:24,150
them say this or do this thing yeah if

415
00:21:22,320 –> 00:21:26,160
you if you were to the point where it

416
00:21:24,150 –> 00:21:28,680
kind of makes you freeze then be like

417
00:21:26,160 –> 00:21:30,300
I’m really glad but greet it with like

418
00:21:28,680 –> 00:21:33,390
this openness like I’m so glad you

419
00:21:30,300 –> 00:21:35,640
brought that or I’m so glad you said

420
00:21:33,390 –> 00:21:37,950
that and that’s a great question or

421
00:21:35,640 –> 00:21:40,950
that’s a great thing to bring to your

422
00:21:37,950 –> 00:21:42,810
counselor person yeah and if they don’t

423
00:21:40,950 –> 00:21:44,220
have one that might be the time to look

424
00:21:42,810 –> 00:21:46,110
for what know might be the time to look

425
00:21:44,220 –> 00:21:51,870
for one yet you notice you’re hitting a

426
00:21:46,110 –> 00:21:54,900
wall yeah yeah do you have any ideas or

427
00:21:51,870 –> 00:21:57,300
suggestions for people who maybe are who

428
00:21:54,900 –> 00:22:01,440
do know recognize that they have a hard

429
00:21:57,300 –> 00:22:03,360
time playing like how to get started cuz

430
00:22:01,440 –> 00:22:05,280
I know that I have a lot of parents that

431
00:22:03,360 –> 00:22:07,890
tell me I don’t play

432
00:22:05,280 –> 00:22:12,060
I just don’t play yeah and there and

433
00:22:07,890 –> 00:22:13,920
it’s like I think it is I some cultures

434
00:22:12,060 –> 00:22:16,050
don’t play with kids and those kids are

435
00:22:13,920 –> 00:22:18,090
more like you know around a miraculous

436
00:22:16,050 –> 00:22:20,850
adults they don’t think that it’s

437
00:22:18,090 –> 00:22:23,070
totally necessary it is kind of

438
00:22:20,850 –> 00:22:27,470
unavoidable but a good starting point is

439
00:22:23,070 –> 00:22:30,180
just trying to find some common ground

440
00:22:27,470 –> 00:22:36,980
anything that you share interest in you

441
00:22:30,180 –> 00:22:39,480
can if you if imaginative play is is

442
00:22:36,980 –> 00:22:42,030
where you get lost then you can pick

443
00:22:39,480 –> 00:22:43,530
something more structured like I took

444
00:22:42,030 –> 00:22:44,940
ten of your toys and I wrapped them in

445
00:22:43,530 –> 00:22:48,270
newspaper and I hid them around the

446
00:22:44,940 –> 00:22:49,890
house and go find them it’s like you’re

447
00:22:48,270 –> 00:22:53,250
I mean you just have to sit in the chair

448
00:22:49,890 –> 00:22:54,870
and be like oh you did it you know and

449
00:22:53,250 –> 00:22:57,060
the kids looking and coming back to you

450
00:22:54,870 –> 00:22:59,730
and they can see you set this up you’re

451
00:22:57,060 –> 00:23:03,390
enthusiastic right but you are not

452
00:22:59,730 –> 00:23:07,140
getting in whatever state imaginative

453
00:23:03,390 –> 00:23:09,180
play puts you in so I mean maybe journal

454
00:23:07,140 –> 00:23:09,930
about what kind of play you like what

455
00:23:09,180 –> 00:23:11,430
you don’t like

456
00:23:09,930 –> 00:23:15,020
I would gern a little bit about what

457
00:23:11,430 –> 00:23:15,020
playing for you was like as a kid

458
00:23:15,380 –> 00:23:21,990
so so our youth are you suggesting then

459
00:23:19,290 –> 00:23:25,440
that parents maybe give some thought to

460
00:23:21,990 –> 00:23:27,660
what was play like for you as a kid what

461
00:23:25,440 –> 00:23:29,610
what did you like about it what did you

462
00:23:27,660 –> 00:23:32,190
not like about it or you know like what

463
00:23:29,610 –> 00:23:35,120
would be something you could do and and

464
00:23:32,190 –> 00:23:38,810
does it even need to be super structured

465
00:23:35,120 –> 00:23:41,250
no I don’t think so I think it can be

466
00:23:38,810 –> 00:23:42,840
yeah I think from you would have seen

467
00:23:41,250 –> 00:23:46,560
with a lot of parents who’ve had a block

468
00:23:42,840 –> 00:23:49,200
is that just having somebody say a lot

469
00:23:46,560 –> 00:23:50,940
of people don’t like playing and it can

470
00:23:49,200 –> 00:23:53,250
be connected to something you like just

471
00:23:50,940 –> 00:23:54,570
the acknowledgement helps people turn

472
00:23:53,250 –> 00:23:57,780
the page they like I played every day

473
00:23:54,570 –> 00:23:59,760
this week you know so just a pencil I

474
00:23:57,780 –> 00:24:03,150
give them self a moment to acknowledge

475
00:23:59,760 –> 00:24:05,570
yeah this is kind of terrible I’ve seen

476
00:24:03,150 –> 00:24:08,910
people turn the page pretty quick and

477
00:24:05,570 –> 00:24:10,740
here’s another question like in in

478
00:24:08,910 –> 00:24:12,800
two-parent homes because of course

479
00:24:10,740 –> 00:24:16,440
sometimes it’s just a one parent home

480
00:24:12,800 –> 00:24:19,320
but in two-parent homes is it totally

481
00:24:16,440 –> 00:24:22,890
okay if one parent is the play parent I

482
00:24:19,320 –> 00:24:27,750
think so is it yeah I just wonder about

483
00:24:22,890 –> 00:24:30,870
that if it’s if it’s okay if or I really

484
00:24:27,750 –> 00:24:32,670
do or if it really does if it really is

485
00:24:30,870 –> 00:24:35,600
important that you have that play

486
00:24:32,670 –> 00:24:38,310
connection with both parents you know

487
00:24:35,600 –> 00:24:40,890
the plate plays important because it

488
00:24:38,310 –> 00:24:46,170
kids build you know they’re using their

489
00:24:40,890 –> 00:24:47,730
muscles and brains they are but there’s

490
00:24:46,170 –> 00:24:50,580
a lot of self-esteem building that

491
00:24:47,730 –> 00:24:52,320
actually happens in play that I think

492
00:24:50,580 –> 00:24:55,950
that some adults don’t know about so

493
00:24:52,320 –> 00:24:59,160
when a kid is like this cup is a

494
00:24:55,950 –> 00:25:00,810
rocketship and you’re like like amazing

495
00:24:59,160 –> 00:25:04,320
rocket ship or whatever all in the

496
00:25:00,810 –> 00:25:06,600
rocket ship you joining in their kid

497
00:25:04,320 –> 00:25:13,500
world is such a like a self-esteem

498
00:25:06,600 –> 00:25:15,840
booster right um yeah because there’s

499
00:25:13,500 –> 00:25:18,750
other ways to do that’s kind of boosting

500
00:25:15,840 –> 00:25:20,610
like that kind of like joining that if

501
00:25:18,750 –> 00:25:22,080
you are not particularly the one that’s

502
00:25:20,610 –> 00:25:25,410
gonna play there’s other ways to do that

503
00:25:22,080 –> 00:25:27,650
but that is important so is the idea

504
00:25:25,410 –> 00:25:31,250
that really for kids

505
00:25:27,650 –> 00:25:33,880
play is their work like so we’re like

506
00:25:31,250 –> 00:25:37,790
play is their work so when we’re

507
00:25:33,880 –> 00:25:41,000
affirming their work and and praising

508
00:25:37,790 –> 00:25:44,360
their work we’re that’s building their

509
00:25:41,000 –> 00:25:45,740
self-esteem yeah yeah that’s really

510
00:25:44,360 –> 00:25:48,770
interesting I never kind of thought of

511
00:25:45,740 –> 00:25:53,240
it that way what you’re describing there

512
00:25:48,770 –> 00:25:56,440
is that what I think of is circle of

513
00:25:53,240 –> 00:25:59,180
security and how it talks about

514
00:25:56,440 –> 00:26:03,470
attunement and delighting in their

515
00:25:59,180 –> 00:26:07,340
presence and that whole looking back and

516
00:26:03,470 –> 00:26:11,740
and seeing that we’ve got this

517
00:26:07,340 –> 00:26:16,220
reciprocal connection and I get you yeah

518
00:26:11,740 –> 00:26:19,670
I kind of like the parent-child

519
00:26:16,220 –> 00:26:22,430
interaction therapy they they they

520
00:26:19,670 –> 00:26:27,230
encourage this playtime with kids that

521
00:26:22,430 –> 00:26:28,610
is basically so parents are coming in

522
00:26:27,230 –> 00:26:29,900
and they’re like my kid won’t listen to

523
00:26:28,610 –> 00:26:33,890
me and then they’re like help me give

524
00:26:29,900 –> 00:26:35,780
this kid consequences and we want to

525
00:26:33,890 –> 00:26:37,730
kind of interrupt that and go back and

526
00:26:35,780 –> 00:26:39,560
say if you build a relationship if you

527
00:26:37,730 –> 00:26:41,450
work on the attachment piece then you’re

528
00:26:39,560 –> 00:26:43,280
actually gonna your kid will listen to

529
00:26:41,450 –> 00:26:46,880
you more naturally because the

530
00:26:43,280 –> 00:26:50,630
relationship is stronger right so and in

531
00:26:46,880 –> 00:26:52,850
that so parents are given not coaching

532
00:26:50,630 –> 00:26:55,940
around this kind of special playtime and

533
00:26:52,850 –> 00:26:57,710
that playtime is its brief it’s like

534
00:26:55,940 –> 00:27:00,050
five minutes a day and it’s creative

535
00:26:57,710 –> 00:27:02,330
play and it’s theirs do you get a box of

536
00:27:00,050 –> 00:27:04,010
toys and they’re not toys that have a

537
00:27:02,330 –> 00:27:06,590
prescribed way to place the kid could

538
00:27:04,010 –> 00:27:09,020
play however with them hello so not like

539
00:27:06,590 –> 00:27:10,970
a coloring book but maybe just a sheet

540
00:27:09,020 –> 00:27:12,170
with crayons or blocks or something that

541
00:27:10,970 –> 00:27:15,020
can be used in any way

542
00:27:12,170 –> 00:27:17,930
got it so when the kid starts playing

543
00:27:15,020 –> 00:27:19,670
you’re copying the kid right so if

544
00:27:17,930 –> 00:27:22,520
they’re using crown this way you’re

545
00:27:19,670 –> 00:27:23,990
using the crane that way and what it

546
00:27:22,520 –> 00:27:27,680
really starts to build as kids are

547
00:27:23,990 –> 00:27:29,600
noticing like oh I have good ideas I’m a

548
00:27:27,680 –> 00:27:32,990
valuable person that somebody wants to

549
00:27:29,600 –> 00:27:34,900
be by and like they’re an adult modeling

550
00:27:32,990 –> 00:27:39,830
what they’re doing after me like wow

551
00:27:34,900 –> 00:27:41,950
that’s so great dad that yeah it’s

552
00:27:39,830 –> 00:27:45,290
really lovely

553
00:27:41,950 –> 00:27:54,559
so Mary can you talk about the

554
00:27:45,290 –> 00:27:57,230
importance of praise well kids are in in

555
00:27:54,559 –> 00:28:00,830
kids younger years you’re very

556
00:27:57,230 –> 00:28:03,950
developmentally you are building your

557
00:28:00,830 –> 00:28:06,049
identity you are like I am the center of

558
00:28:03,950 –> 00:28:09,200
the worlds right so if the world around

559
00:28:06,049 –> 00:28:10,970
you is not working like you’re losing a

560
00:28:09,200 –> 00:28:14,450
home people are being violent people are

561
00:28:10,970 –> 00:28:16,520
being scary kids can start to develop a

562
00:28:14,450 –> 00:28:18,710
story maybe there’s something wrong with

563
00:28:16,520 –> 00:28:20,870
me because developmentally their job is

564
00:28:18,710 –> 00:28:23,210
to be very focused on themselves right

565
00:28:20,870 –> 00:28:25,549
they are not quite at a spot where they

566
00:28:23,210 –> 00:28:28,160
can say oh that’s because addiction is

567
00:28:25,549 –> 00:28:30,740
very complicated or right these things

568
00:28:28,160 –> 00:28:33,500
that we can know it are on to be true

569
00:28:30,740 –> 00:28:35,929
right poverty is brutal for family it’s

570
00:28:33,500 –> 00:28:38,809
like we can know these later on but as a

571
00:28:35,929 –> 00:28:43,640
kid you’re like oh I might be broken so

572
00:28:38,809 –> 00:28:47,330
if a kid who has endured that if you get

573
00:28:43,640 –> 00:28:49,429
a chance and anything is a chance so

574
00:28:47,330 –> 00:28:50,929
start to reset that narrative it’s like

575
00:28:49,429 –> 00:28:53,570
the tape that’s playing in their head

576
00:28:50,929 –> 00:28:55,429
and before it gets formed it’s kind of

577
00:28:53,570 –> 00:28:57,650
this question like maybe I’m the problem

578
00:28:55,429 –> 00:29:00,140
maybe I’m broken so all that’s still in

579
00:28:57,650 –> 00:29:03,200
question if we have a chance to say no

580
00:29:00,140 –> 00:29:05,690
that’s not it you’re phenomenal look at

581
00:29:03,200 –> 00:29:09,770
all of this we have a chance to

582
00:29:05,690 –> 00:29:14,299
interrupt that becoming their story of

583
00:29:09,770 –> 00:29:16,070
who they are that is amazing and I think

584
00:29:14,299 –> 00:29:18,200
that I’m so glad that you said that

585
00:29:16,070 –> 00:29:20,630
because I think that’s such an important

586
00:29:18,200 –> 00:29:23,510
thing for parents to realize because I

587
00:29:20,630 –> 00:29:27,320
think we do make the mistake of

588
00:29:23,510 –> 00:29:30,350
realizing of not realizing that our kids

589
00:29:27,320 –> 00:29:33,820
have the capacity to understand and

590
00:29:30,350 –> 00:29:37,970
think like adults you know and

591
00:29:33,820 –> 00:29:42,200
especially I think we have we often have

592
00:29:37,970 –> 00:29:45,530
the idea that kids who have moved from

593
00:29:42,200 –> 00:29:49,610
placement to placement or been you know

594
00:29:45,530 –> 00:29:52,250
in in foster placements that they have

595
00:29:49,610 –> 00:29:55,100
this beyond their years knowing and

596
00:29:52,250 –> 00:30:01,570
understanding and

597
00:29:55,100 –> 00:30:05,390
I do but I they also don’t write true

598
00:30:01,570 –> 00:30:08,450
yeah there are a lot of things that they

599
00:30:05,390 –> 00:30:12,340
might have had these way advanced

600
00:30:08,450 –> 00:30:16,520
experiences so in some ways they have

601
00:30:12,340 –> 00:30:19,370
insights profound insights that people

602
00:30:16,520 –> 00:30:23,990
their age do not usually have but then

603
00:30:19,370 –> 00:30:28,100
they also still have whatever age they

604
00:30:23,990 –> 00:30:32,419
are brains that still have perspectives

605
00:30:28,100 –> 00:30:35,510
and thoughts at that age too yeah and

606
00:30:32,419 –> 00:30:38,630
even younger sometimes too yeah

607
00:30:35,510 –> 00:30:40,669
so it’s hard because it gets really

608
00:30:38,630 –> 00:30:43,280
confusing and I think that that’s one of

609
00:30:40,669 –> 00:30:45,289
the things that for me and my parenting

610
00:30:43,280 –> 00:30:49,610
journey one of the things that I have

611
00:30:45,289 –> 00:30:51,470
had to adjust is not only my

612
00:30:49,610 –> 00:30:54,559
expectations and I’m talking about that

613
00:30:51,470 –> 00:30:57,559
all the time and I know that anybody who

614
00:30:54,559 –> 00:30:59,900
is parenting a child with some trauma

615
00:30:57,559 –> 00:31:01,640
related needs I think that that is

616
00:30:59,900 –> 00:31:02,840
something that you learn pretty early on

617
00:31:01,640 –> 00:31:06,880
that you have to adjust your

618
00:31:02,840 –> 00:31:09,830
expectations right but I think that

619
00:31:06,880 –> 00:31:15,500
adjusting your expectations is one thing

620
00:31:09,830 –> 00:31:18,380
but adjusting your lens and adjusting

621
00:31:15,500 –> 00:31:20,960
how you see your child’s gifts is a

622
00:31:18,380 –> 00:31:24,169
whole other thing and not something you

623
00:31:20,960 –> 00:31:28,070
and I have talked about a lot um do you

624
00:31:24,169 –> 00:31:31,360
want to speak to that son yes yeah I

625
00:31:28,070 –> 00:31:33,260
think it’s really understanding

626
00:31:31,360 –> 00:31:36,260
development and trauma will help you

627
00:31:33,260 –> 00:31:38,419
understand that if you say to a kid with

628
00:31:36,260 –> 00:31:41,330
no trauma like I’m sorry didn’t take the

629
00:31:38,419 –> 00:31:43,280
dog food or like feed the dog right that

630
00:31:41,330 –> 00:31:46,179
kid can hear I’m really frustrated you

631
00:31:43,280 –> 00:31:48,710
didn’t feed the dog and I kid with

632
00:31:46,179 –> 00:31:51,200
trauma and abandonment neglect is gonna

633
00:31:48,710 –> 00:31:54,380
hear this here’s more proof you’re

634
00:31:51,200 –> 00:31:57,200
unlovable so you can get a kid that

635
00:31:54,380 –> 00:31:58,850
turns your house upside down and because

636
00:31:57,200 –> 00:32:00,110
you’ve brought up the dog food in these

637
00:31:58,850 –> 00:32:03,620
parents were like I’m just want this kid

638
00:32:00,110 –> 00:32:05,419
to feed the dog and it’s like but what

639
00:32:03,620 –> 00:32:07,549
they experienced was you saying you’re

640
00:32:05,419 –> 00:32:08,240
unlovable which is intolerable I

641
00:32:07,549 –> 00:32:16,309
couldn’t tell her

642
00:32:08,240 –> 00:32:18,380
no and I think that the yeah I like to

643
00:32:16,309 –> 00:32:22,370
think about like labeled praise so being

644
00:32:18,380 –> 00:32:23,929
really specific about the praise it’s

645
00:32:22,370 –> 00:32:25,730
not like you did a good job but like I

646
00:32:23,929 –> 00:32:29,690
really appreciate how you contribute to

647
00:32:25,730 –> 00:32:31,460
the family or but for the skill of like

648
00:32:29,690 –> 00:32:33,590
totally delighting in a kid I feel like

649
00:32:31,460 –> 00:32:37,120
I learned that the best from you and

650
00:32:33,590 –> 00:32:41,750
your husband watching you guys the kids

651
00:32:37,120 –> 00:32:44,450
yeah that really helped me understand I

652
00:32:41,750 –> 00:32:47,420
think it’s something I naturally knew

653
00:32:44,450 –> 00:32:49,190
but I feel like you guys could like be

654
00:32:47,420 –> 00:32:52,309
in the Guinness Book of Records know the

655
00:32:49,190 –> 00:32:54,290
things you can delight in this like you

656
00:32:52,309 –> 00:32:56,540
know these kids like destroying your car

657
00:32:54,290 –> 00:33:02,320
and you’re like this so funny this kids

658
00:32:56,540 –> 00:33:05,450
so funny and it was like genuine delight

659
00:33:02,320 –> 00:33:07,970
that I know this it can feel it makes me

660
00:33:05,450 –> 00:33:09,350
so happy that this kid is doing this

661
00:33:07,970 –> 00:33:11,390
thing that somebody else could

662
00:33:09,350 –> 00:33:12,830
definitely give them response that’ll

663
00:33:11,390 –> 00:33:15,500
feel like you were unlovable

664
00:33:12,830 –> 00:33:20,390
and what they got from y’all was you’re

665
00:33:15,500 –> 00:33:23,750
so funny you know well but I think that

666
00:33:20,390 –> 00:33:26,840
comes from really really understand like

667
00:33:23,750 –> 00:33:30,490
you said really understanding brain

668
00:33:26,840 –> 00:33:33,380
development and understanding and

669
00:33:30,490 –> 00:33:37,580
attachment and trauma like it really

670
00:33:33,380 –> 00:33:41,990
getting to a place where um when things

671
00:33:37,580 –> 00:33:46,070
happen you really understand why they

672
00:33:41,990 –> 00:33:50,600
are happening yes immediately yeah stead

673
00:33:46,070 –> 00:33:55,730
of being stuck in how it feels

674
00:33:50,600 –> 00:33:58,570
yeah happening seeing the kid beyond the

675
00:33:55,730 –> 00:34:01,370
behavior yes

676
00:33:58,570 –> 00:34:05,030
and and that takes a lot of practice and

677
00:34:01,370 –> 00:34:06,710
time you know and the thing I wonder

678
00:34:05,030 –> 00:34:10,280
about so here’s my question for you know

679
00:34:06,710 –> 00:34:16,490
an interviewer it’s like we were saying

680
00:34:10,280 –> 00:34:18,590
before about if you go into your so for

681
00:34:16,490 –> 00:34:20,600
the adult if you go into your story

682
00:34:18,590 –> 00:34:21,280
about play or your experience as a kid

683
00:34:20,600 –> 00:34:23,679
and you

684
00:34:21,280 –> 00:34:26,050
maybe bring more to your kid right I

685
00:34:23,679 –> 00:34:28,570
wonder about that with being able to

686
00:34:26,050 –> 00:34:31,230
delight in your kids you’re saying like

687
00:34:28,570 –> 00:34:33,880
you had to learn that in some ways

688
00:34:31,230 –> 00:34:39,940
did you also have to figure out how to

689
00:34:33,880 –> 00:34:43,270
delight in yourself um definitely I

690
00:34:39,940 –> 00:34:44,409
definitely had to do my own work changed

691
00:34:43,270 –> 00:34:48,159
yourself talkers

692
00:34:44,409 –> 00:34:50,440
yeah for sure and and of course still

693
00:34:48,159 –> 00:34:55,270
there are things I think I I think I

694
00:34:50,440 –> 00:34:57,310
always had I think what it starts with

695
00:34:55,270 –> 00:35:00,550
is having a lot of empathy for your

696
00:34:57,310 –> 00:35:04,300
child right and I think that most people

697
00:35:00,550 –> 00:35:07,030
who are parenting kids who have been

698
00:35:04,300 –> 00:35:09,220
through really tough things start out

699
00:35:07,030 –> 00:35:13,990
with a time with a lot of empathy for

700
00:35:09,220 –> 00:35:16,990
those things and then the intensity and

701
00:35:13,990 –> 00:35:20,500
frequency of that behavior starts to get

702
00:35:16,990 –> 00:35:23,680
to them yeah and they become kind of

703
00:35:20,500 –> 00:35:25,960
compassion fatigue right and that

704
00:35:23,680 –> 00:35:30,790
becomes harder and harder to access

705
00:35:25,960 –> 00:35:33,940
sometimes and I think that for me the

706
00:35:30,790 –> 00:35:38,530
trick has been being able to stay in

707
00:35:33,940 –> 00:35:45,070
that place of remembering why the

708
00:35:38,530 –> 00:35:50,140
behavior is there yeah and understanding

709
00:35:45,070 –> 00:35:54,160
that what actually works to change the

710
00:35:50,140 –> 00:35:57,030
behavior is the opposite of what we all

711
00:35:54,160 –> 00:36:01,690
were taught works to change behavior

712
00:35:57,030 –> 00:36:06,120
right yeah and the idea that like the

713
00:36:01,690 –> 00:36:09,160
way I always look at it now is okay when

714
00:36:06,120 –> 00:36:12,640
there’s when I see in the face of

715
00:36:09,160 –> 00:36:15,580
dysregulation of any kind there’s a

716
00:36:12,640 –> 00:36:18,640
window of opportunity to lay new neural

717
00:36:15,580 –> 00:36:21,610
pathways and if I can respond to that in

718
00:36:18,640 –> 00:36:26,260
a way that helps to lay neural pathways

719
00:36:21,610 –> 00:36:28,840
then I’m helping and not harming yeah

720
00:36:26,260 –> 00:36:31,570
part of that means seeing the child for

721
00:36:28,840 –> 00:36:35,840
who they are and appreciating them for

722
00:36:31,570 –> 00:36:40,070
who they are and noticing who they are

723
00:36:35,840 –> 00:36:42,350
and I think that that for us and and

724
00:36:40,070 –> 00:36:45,230
then and I think over the years just

725
00:36:42,350 –> 00:36:47,660
working with so many kids getting to see

726
00:36:45,230 –> 00:36:50,360
that in my own kids might I mean my kids

727
00:36:47,660 –> 00:36:56,780
have said some of the most hilarious and

728
00:36:50,360 –> 00:36:58,880
profound and like things I ever heard in

729
00:36:56,780 –> 00:37:02,410
my life and then the kids I’ve worked

730
00:36:58,880 –> 00:37:06,380
with the same thing is true you know and

731
00:37:02,410 –> 00:37:10,130
and I think that that’s the the reward

732
00:37:06,380 –> 00:37:12,890
and the joy of being around and working

733
00:37:10,130 –> 00:37:15,080
with kids and having kids in your life

734
00:37:12,890 –> 00:37:20,110
that had experienced trauma is that they

735
00:37:15,080 –> 00:37:24,950
do have this depth that is pretty

736
00:37:20,110 –> 00:37:27,320
remarkable absolutely yeah and I would

737
00:37:24,950 –> 00:37:32,690
say for the kids I’m thinking of that

738
00:37:27,320 –> 00:37:34,520
I’ve seen you and G work with I am

739
00:37:32,690 –> 00:37:36,680
amazed by how willing the kids are to

740
00:37:34,520 –> 00:37:38,990
accept this beautiful narrative of

741
00:37:36,680 –> 00:37:42,080
themselves even though they’ve had so

742
00:37:38,990 –> 00:37:45,560
many situations where this negative

743
00:37:42,080 –> 00:37:46,700
thing is reinforced right and that’s the

744
00:37:45,560 –> 00:37:49,930
what I was saying earlier like I really

745
00:37:46,700 –> 00:37:52,340
think were wired to heal like you know

746
00:37:49,930 –> 00:37:55,190
the whole world could be reinforcing

747
00:37:52,340 –> 00:37:57,250
this kid is just a bad kid and then you

748
00:37:55,190 –> 00:38:00,500
all come in and you present this other

749
00:37:57,250 –> 00:38:02,510
possibility and that kids like that’s it

750
00:38:00,500 –> 00:38:05,420
that’s who I am that’s right I’m awesome

751
00:38:02,510 –> 00:38:11,900
yeah they’re like they’re like I knew it

752
00:38:05,420 –> 00:38:14,570
I knew it was that seeing that yes that

753
00:38:11,900 –> 00:38:18,310
is such a great thing when you see that

754
00:38:14,570 –> 00:38:23,360
because and it is really amazing how

755
00:38:18,310 –> 00:38:25,850
receptive to that kids are yeah yeah

756
00:38:23,360 –> 00:38:30,170
once it’s there and if you can roll

757
00:38:25,850 –> 00:38:33,380
through the the explosive the big

758
00:38:30,170 –> 00:38:35,510
reaction but all of it and you can stick

759
00:38:33,380 –> 00:38:40,220
with yet you’re awesome

760
00:38:35,510 –> 00:38:43,100
you are totally awesome yeah it’s

761
00:38:40,220 –> 00:38:47,860
amazing how quickly they’ll get back to

762
00:38:43,100 –> 00:38:47,860
oh yeah right I am awesome right

763
00:38:49,040 –> 00:38:53,390
so as I’m thinking about what when

764
00:38:51,170 –> 00:38:54,830
you’re saying what worked for you was

765
00:38:53,390 –> 00:38:56,960
really getting the point where you

766
00:38:54,830 –> 00:39:00,920
learned the brain science so well that

767
00:38:56,960 –> 00:39:02,030
you could stay rooted in like this is

768
00:39:00,920 –> 00:39:05,450
the truth of what’s occurring

769
00:39:02,030 –> 00:39:09,530
neurologically that that helps you with

770
00:39:05,450 –> 00:39:12,920
kids and in my dream as a therapist and

771
00:39:09,530 –> 00:39:14,930
like family’s healing together because

772
00:39:12,920 –> 00:39:16,910
what I see sometimes with parents is I’m

773
00:39:14,930 –> 00:39:18,920
giving them that information about

774
00:39:16,910 –> 00:39:21,050
brains and then I’m giving them the

775
00:39:18,920 –> 00:39:23,540
script like I would be like say exactly

776
00:39:21,050 –> 00:39:25,910
this to the kid and they’re saying it’s

777
00:39:23,540 –> 00:39:27,740
not landing in the same way and that’s

778
00:39:25,910 –> 00:39:30,170
the thing I’m curious about is if those

779
00:39:27,740 –> 00:39:31,640
pants I my guess is for some of those

780
00:39:30,170 –> 00:39:32,900
pants they’re still being really hard on

781
00:39:31,640 –> 00:39:34,910
themselves I’m really cruel to

782
00:39:32,900 –> 00:39:38,150
themselves they’re not giving that same

783
00:39:34,910 –> 00:39:40,520
empathy and compassion to them so how

784
00:39:38,150 –> 00:39:43,790
can the kid how can they really give it

785
00:39:40,520 –> 00:39:45,680
how can the kid really absorb it main

786
00:39:43,790 –> 00:39:49,070
thing would be the combination that they

787
00:39:45,680 –> 00:39:53,090
really learn why kids are actually they

788
00:39:49,070 –> 00:39:58,420
are and give them some space to be human

789
00:39:53,090 –> 00:40:02,030
too and yes I I think you just totally

790
00:39:58,420 –> 00:40:04,190
honed in on I think that it’s it’s those

791
00:40:02,030 –> 00:40:10,840
I think it’s that and then the other

792
00:40:04,190 –> 00:40:14,980
thing might added dream to that is that

793
00:40:10,840 –> 00:40:18,020
that ability to I don’t know

794
00:40:14,980 –> 00:40:21,770
disregard override whatever you want to

795
00:40:18,020 –> 00:40:24,440
call it the external pressure yeah to be

796
00:40:21,770 –> 00:40:28,790
the same yeah you know because I think

797
00:40:24,440 –> 00:40:34,280
that’s really what what of everything

798
00:40:28,790 –> 00:40:37,130
else that helped me the very most was

799
00:40:34,280 –> 00:40:40,400
the point of surrender when I just went

800
00:40:37,130 –> 00:40:42,470
uncle we are not gonna be the same yeah

801
00:40:40,400 –> 00:40:45,650
we’re not gonna be the same and it is

802
00:40:42,470 –> 00:40:48,890
okay same you and your kid or you and

803
00:40:45,650 –> 00:40:51,050
other families us and other families not

804
00:40:48,890 –> 00:40:53,810
going to look like every other family

805
00:40:51,050 –> 00:40:57,680
and that is totally okay as a matter of

806
00:40:53,810 –> 00:41:01,250
fact it’s even kind of cool yeah you

807
00:40:57,680 –> 00:41:02,040
know I think every parenting group I’ve

808
00:41:01,250 –> 00:41:05,400
done

809
00:41:02,040 –> 00:41:06,750
when we explore triggers most little

810
00:41:05,400 –> 00:41:07,410
sugar is parenting in front of other

811
00:41:06,750 –> 00:41:11,310
people

812
00:41:07,410 –> 00:41:15,660
oh it’s so hard so hard and I will say

813
00:41:11,310 –> 00:41:19,920
that I took care of kids I was a nanny

814
00:41:15,660 –> 00:41:26,640
before I had kids I have spent my entire

815
00:41:19,920 –> 00:41:29,970
adult life around kids I had no idea how

816
00:41:26,640 –> 00:41:33,480
much judgment came with being a parent

817
00:41:29,970 –> 00:41:36,000
right until I actually became a parent

818
00:41:33,480 –> 00:41:44,270
yeah and becoming a parent of children

819
00:41:36,000 –> 00:41:48,030
who do not behave like that is a very

820
00:41:44,270 –> 00:41:52,860
big awakening you know it really is a

821
00:41:48,030 –> 00:41:55,440
very big thing it’s really hard you know

822
00:41:52,860 –> 00:41:57,360
that biological pressure to have your

823
00:41:55,440 –> 00:42:00,120
Wolf’s not get pushed out of the pack

824
00:41:57,360 –> 00:42:04,440
and so you crack down on your little

825
00:42:00,120 –> 00:42:06,690
wolf pup instead like demanding that the

826
00:42:04,440 –> 00:42:09,780
world be make room for these kids which

827
00:42:06,690 –> 00:42:11,250
is really what we have to do but it’s

828
00:42:09,780 –> 00:42:12,960
hard in that moment when your kid is

829
00:42:11,250 –> 00:42:17,280
like throwing stuff in the gas station

830
00:42:12,960 –> 00:42:20,400
or something yes it is it is and then

831
00:42:17,280 –> 00:42:22,950
but just once you get to that place I

832
00:42:20,400 –> 00:42:25,950
think that there’s so much and I tell

833
00:42:22,950 –> 00:42:28,830
this to parents all the time there is so

834
00:42:25,950 –> 00:42:34,440
much freedom you know the freedom so

835
00:42:28,830 –> 00:42:37,020
much freedom in just relaxing into the

836
00:42:34,440 –> 00:42:39,660
idea that yet we’re not going to be

837
00:42:37,020 –> 00:42:43,890
doing things on the same developmental

838
00:42:39,660 –> 00:42:47,510
milestone as everybody else we’re gonna

839
00:42:43,890 –> 00:42:50,430
be celebrating different milestones are

840
00:42:47,510 –> 00:42:52,860
you know what we celebrate is gonna be

841
00:42:50,430 –> 00:42:56,520
different it’s just it’s all gonna be

842
00:42:52,860 –> 00:43:01,110
different and that is totally ok one of

843
00:42:56,520 –> 00:43:06,420
the things I’ve said is is that for us

844
00:43:01,110 –> 00:43:08,010
you know my daughter and I having a

845
00:43:06,420 –> 00:43:11,700
connection we have a really close

846
00:43:08,010 –> 00:43:14,830
connection and we worked really really

847
00:43:11,700 –> 00:43:18,370
really beyond imagination

848
00:43:14,830 –> 00:43:22,630
for that connection and that to me is

849
00:43:18,370 –> 00:43:26,160
like like you know the highest honor at

850
00:43:22,630 –> 00:43:30,070
the highest Ivy League college in right

851
00:43:26,160 –> 00:43:33,840
yeah the old world like I to me it’s

852
00:43:30,070 –> 00:43:37,840
like light-years beyond that that’s like

853
00:43:33,840 –> 00:43:44,920
amazing to me and the reward of that for

854
00:43:37,840 –> 00:43:49,330
me is so huge like I I really have this

855
00:43:44,920 –> 00:43:51,640
deep deep celebration reward with that

856
00:43:49,330 –> 00:43:53,530
that I think that a lot of people have

857
00:43:51,640 –> 00:43:55,780
difficulty understanding but if you’ve

858
00:43:53,530 –> 00:43:58,360
parented a child with attachment and

859
00:43:55,780 –> 00:44:01,930
trauma related stuff you really know

860
00:43:58,360 –> 00:44:06,340
that know what that’s worth right that’s

861
00:44:01,930 –> 00:44:10,369
a that is a that’s a big thing yeah I

862
00:44:06,340 –> 00:44:12,859
mean we’re all parenting under

863
00:44:10,369 –> 00:44:14,869
capitalism and in a society that is like

864
00:44:12,859 –> 00:44:17,239
racist and classist and a lot of things

865
00:44:14,869 –> 00:44:22,910
that get celebrated are racist and

866
00:44:17,239 –> 00:44:25,099
classist too you know yeah yeah so you

867
00:44:22,910 –> 00:44:28,130
get to do this radical thing when you

868
00:44:25,099 –> 00:44:30,109
celebrate these beautiful events that

869
00:44:28,130 –> 00:44:32,989
are just beautiful minutes

870
00:44:30,109 –> 00:44:36,229
I remember celebrating things like my

871
00:44:32,989 –> 00:44:39,920
daughter told the teacher that she had a

872
00:44:36,229 –> 00:44:42,589
problem with something so she got

873
00:44:39,920 –> 00:44:44,989
scolded and she got told just ignore it

874
00:44:42,589 –> 00:44:46,279
but in our house that was a celebration

875
00:44:44,989 –> 00:44:51,469
she asked for help

876
00:44:46,279 –> 00:44:54,549
yeah she even told wow he trusted an

877
00:44:51,469 –> 00:44:58,549
adult and trusting an adult it’s amazing

878
00:44:54,549 –> 00:45:02,410
right and so being able and open to

879
00:44:58,549 –> 00:45:05,569
recognizing those things I think is so

880
00:45:02,410 –> 00:45:10,279
important and so easily overlooked like

881
00:45:05,569 –> 00:45:14,229
you have to really be thinking to do

882
00:45:10,279 –> 00:45:18,019
that and to remember what a feat it is

883
00:45:14,229 –> 00:45:22,789
for our kids to trust an adult yeah I

884
00:45:18,019 –> 00:45:26,229
mean it really is like a superhero skill

885
00:45:22,789 –> 00:45:29,449
when they are able to do it right and

886
00:45:26,229 –> 00:45:34,359
and against all odds you’re able to do

887
00:45:29,449 –> 00:45:40,429
this super risky thing you’re amazing

888
00:45:34,359 –> 00:45:45,650
yeah not only did you consciously decide

889
00:45:40,429 –> 00:45:48,769
to do that and against every experience

890
00:45:45,650 –> 00:45:52,880
you’ve ever had but you biologically

891
00:45:48,769 –> 00:45:55,189
were able to override your own whole

892
00:45:52,880 –> 00:45:58,519
body fighting against you doing that

893
00:45:55,189 –> 00:46:01,640
whole thing right right the alarm was

894
00:45:58,519 –> 00:46:04,609
going off and you did it anyway right I

895
00:46:01,640 –> 00:46:06,289
mean those things are really huge and I

896
00:46:04,609 –> 00:46:08,569
think that one of the things I really

897
00:46:06,289 –> 00:46:11,469
encourage parents to do is to not lose

898
00:46:08,569 –> 00:46:14,420
sight of that and then even if they have

899
00:46:11,469 –> 00:46:16,729
done it a few times or they’ve gotten to

900
00:46:14,420 –> 00:46:21,170
do it a few times still years later it’s

901
00:46:16,729 –> 00:46:24,300
still hard for sure right it doesn’t get

902
00:46:21,170 –> 00:46:31,470
it doesn’t necessarily still understand

903
00:46:24,300 –> 00:46:37,640
all of us revert back to what we do

904
00:46:31,470 –> 00:46:48,510
right yeah so they do – yeah for sure so

905
00:46:37,640 –> 00:46:51,510
anyway I know we could so going back to

906
00:46:48,510 –> 00:46:53,880
the idea of unique gifts the unique

907
00:46:51,510 –> 00:46:56,940
gifts and insights that the kids that we

908
00:46:53,880 –> 00:46:59,510
work with have one of our mutual clients

909
00:46:56,940 –> 00:47:06,839
was talking recently he’s five years old

910
00:46:59,510 –> 00:47:09,089
he was talking to his parent about about

911
00:47:06,839 –> 00:47:13,859
why it was hard for him to say he’s

912
00:47:09,089 –> 00:47:15,180
sorry and he was say what he said

913
00:47:13,859 –> 00:47:19,619
something that I thought was just

914
00:47:15,180 –> 00:47:25,490
amazing he said to her when I’m sad and

915
00:47:19,619 –> 00:47:30,000
scared my volume button goes off when I

916
00:47:25,490 –> 00:47:32,010
mean the inside of that I mean can you

917
00:47:30,000 –> 00:47:34,530
speak a little bit to like what that

918
00:47:32,010 –> 00:47:38,099
must mean I mean he’s five years old

919
00:47:34,530 –> 00:47:39,599
yeah like I wish I had like 50 old

920
00:47:38,099 –> 00:47:42,059
clients who could have that awareness

921
00:47:39,599 –> 00:47:44,220
you know like this is what happens to me

922
00:47:42,059 –> 00:47:49,380
in that moment it’s phenomenally that

923
00:47:44,220 –> 00:47:51,000
deserves the parade because he was

924
00:47:49,380 –> 00:47:54,420
really getting what his adult was saying

925
00:47:51,000 –> 00:47:56,160
is you really want an apology and he’s

926
00:47:54,420 –> 00:47:58,700
really saying I am the kind of person

927
00:47:56,160 –> 00:48:01,829
who wants to be able to give an apology

928
00:47:58,700 –> 00:48:03,690
right and I’m noticing I can’t like

929
00:48:01,829 –> 00:48:05,369
that’s amazing he can say yes I am that

930
00:48:03,690 –> 00:48:08,130
person I’m a good person

931
00:48:05,369 –> 00:48:12,720
and I also see there’s something in the

932
00:48:08,130 –> 00:48:15,450
way yeah I mean sad and scared and my

933
00:48:12,720 –> 00:48:19,079
body just can’t make it happen like

934
00:48:15,450 –> 00:48:21,540
where it’s a camp not a won’t he say I

935
00:48:19,079 –> 00:48:26,520
can feel this can’t and I can describe

936
00:48:21,540 –> 00:48:32,760
it beautifully right exactly I mean that

937
00:48:26,520 –> 00:48:36,569
is like like just so incredible right

938
00:48:32,760 –> 00:48:37,530
and I know just to get another one like

939
00:48:36,569 –> 00:48:40,920
another thing

940
00:48:37,530 –> 00:48:44,280
like that I know that once my daughter

941
00:48:40,920 –> 00:48:47,190
and I well we were all our whole family

942
00:48:44,280 –> 00:48:52,470
was driving to do a we were actually

943
00:48:47,190 –> 00:48:55,770
driving to a bio family visit and my

944
00:48:52,470 –> 00:48:59,070
daughter was six years old and we were

945
00:48:55,770 –> 00:49:01,620
driving to see her birth parent and we

946
00:48:59,070 –> 00:49:04,410
had just watched Star Wars Jake because

947
00:49:01,620 –> 00:49:07,230
we’re big Star Wars people and Jay had

948
00:49:04,410 –> 00:49:10,500
just shown my daughter sharp Star Wars

949
00:49:07,230 –> 00:49:15,200
and she’s looking out of the window and

950
00:49:10,500 –> 00:49:15,200
just like in deep thought you know and

951
00:49:15,620 –> 00:49:22,620
her birth mom

952
00:49:17,790 –> 00:49:27,240
had a boyfriend who at that time so all

953
00:49:22,620 –> 00:49:32,520
of the all of the reasons for their

954
00:49:27,240 –> 00:49:35,160
removal were placed on him you know like

955
00:49:32,520 –> 00:49:38,360
that was he was for sure the focus from

956
00:49:35,160 –> 00:49:41,250
her perspective of why that happened and

957
00:49:38,360 –> 00:49:44,040
so anyway so she was staring out of the

958
00:49:41,250 –> 00:49:46,620
window just in deep thought and we had

959
00:49:44,040 –> 00:49:48,810
this like two hour car ride and I said

960
00:49:46,620 –> 00:49:52,320
what are you thinking about honey and

961
00:49:48,810 –> 00:49:55,800
she goes I was thinking about this

962
00:49:52,320 –> 00:49:58,530
person and and I’m like oh yeah really

963
00:49:55,800 –> 00:50:02,010
and she goes yeah I was thinking about

964
00:49:58,530 –> 00:50:08,280
how he’s a lot like Darth Vader and I

965
00:50:02,010 –> 00:50:10,680
say oh really how so and she goes you

966
00:50:08,280 –> 00:50:11,600
guys really bad things but there’s good

967
00:50:10,680 –> 00:50:15,360
in him

968
00:50:11,600 –> 00:50:21,990
whoa I know right

969
00:50:15,360 –> 00:50:24,510
she was six years old you know and she

970
00:50:21,990 –> 00:50:26,760
was on her way to visit you know and

971
00:50:24,510 –> 00:50:28,950
just in deep thought thinking about that

972
00:50:26,760 –> 00:50:34,980
movie and comparing it to her life and

973
00:50:28,950 –> 00:50:36,720
I’m thinking do six-year-olds dude here

974
00:50:34,980 –> 00:50:39,840
whatever movie they’re watching to their

975
00:50:36,720 –> 00:50:40,530
lights you know yeah I mean big kids

976
00:50:39,840 –> 00:50:42,330
gets old

977
00:50:40,530 –> 00:50:45,530
that’s why kids get so much out of art

978
00:50:42,330 –> 00:50:49,950
and books and movies and stories and I

979
00:50:45,530 –> 00:50:51,990
mean I don’t describe it right

980
00:50:49,950 –> 00:50:55,049
well I mean I always knew that they just

981
00:50:51,990 –> 00:50:58,859
they thought of themselves as the hero

982
00:50:55,049 –> 00:51:04,589
you know yeah but I didn’t know how like

983
00:50:58,859 –> 00:51:06,869
the entire cast could right so it was

984
00:51:04,589 –> 00:51:08,970
pretty it was pretty amazing and there’s

985
00:51:06,869 –> 00:51:15,299
I mean there are so many things like

986
00:51:08,970 –> 00:51:26,760
that that so many kids had said you know

987
00:51:15,299 –> 00:51:28,410
and then so many funny funny things yeah

988
00:51:26,760 –> 00:51:32,690
that’s true at the end

989
00:51:28,410 –> 00:51:37,369
The Wizard of Oz yeah that’s true but

990
00:51:32,690 –> 00:51:45,390
yeah I I love that and then and then to

991
00:51:37,369 –> 00:51:48,540
I think how kids some kids that we’ve

992
00:51:45,390 –> 00:51:51,990
worked with in particular one comes to

993
00:51:48,540 –> 00:51:56,030
mind in particular who is so knowing

994
00:51:51,990 –> 00:52:00,180
about what he needs like absolutely

995
00:51:56,030 –> 00:52:03,990
knows what he needs all that has to

996
00:52:00,180 –> 00:52:04,829
happen really are the adults need to

997
00:52:03,990 –> 00:52:08,520
just listen

998
00:52:04,829 –> 00:52:10,740
yeah like if the adults will listen he

999
00:52:08,520 –> 00:52:15,329
will tell you exactly what he needs

1000
00:52:10,740 –> 00:52:17,910
no okay in the world and all of it is

1001
00:52:15,329 –> 00:52:21,450
usually a hundred percent reasonable

1002
00:52:17,910 –> 00:52:22,770
yeah right no if it’s not doable and

1003
00:52:21,450 –> 00:52:26,280
even if it’s not doable and you explain

1004
00:52:22,770 –> 00:52:28,880
your right that’s reasonable and it’s

1005
00:52:26,280 –> 00:52:31,880
not doable he can even shift which is

1006
00:52:28,880 –> 00:52:31,880
mind-blowing

1007
00:52:32,420 –> 00:52:39,240
it is really phenomenal and then one

1008
00:52:36,569 –> 00:52:44,010
child also recently during all of this

1009
00:52:39,240 –> 00:52:48,930
Kovac stuff who is in a group home

1010
00:52:44,010 –> 00:52:52,710
setting he’s in total isolation right

1011
00:52:48,930 –> 00:52:56,780
now unfortunately and that isn’t and and

1012
00:52:52,710 –> 00:52:59,970
the reason is because the staff capacity

1013
00:52:56,780 –> 00:53:01,869
doesn’t allow for the level of

1014
00:52:59,970 –> 00:53:05,019
restriction that the kids need

1015
00:53:01,869 –> 00:53:08,499
the number of staff in this Kovach

1016
00:53:05,019 –> 00:53:11,109
situation are requiring that he is alone

1017
00:53:08,499 –> 00:53:15,069
in his room pretty much doing video

1018
00:53:11,109 –> 00:53:18,430
games most of the time you know

1019
00:53:15,069 –> 00:53:20,529
well like 90% of the time I mean like

1020
00:53:18,430 –> 00:53:22,599
that’s pretty much what he’s doing he’s

1021
00:53:20,529 –> 00:53:25,479
not getting physical exercise and he’s

1022
00:53:22,599 –> 00:53:27,279
not getting to do even online school so

1023
00:53:25,479 –> 00:53:31,630
he’s not getting really any interaction

1024
00:53:27,279 –> 00:53:35,499
with anybody else and his caregiver that

1025
00:53:31,630 –> 00:53:40,569
he knew from before a really important

1026
00:53:35,499 –> 00:53:42,039
person in his life asked him what what

1027
00:53:40,569 –> 00:53:44,829
is the first thing you’re gonna do when

1028
00:53:42,039 –> 00:53:51,329
quarantine is over and he said I’m gonna

1029
00:53:44,829 –> 00:53:58,210
get a hug and he is a 14 year old right

1030
00:53:51,329 –> 00:54:00,039
tough boy right well who it’s like that

1031
00:53:58,210 –> 00:54:03,430
level of insight I mean I don’t think

1032
00:54:00,039 –> 00:54:06,519
that he’s like I never am I know what I

1033
00:54:03,430 –> 00:54:08,200
need and this is it yeah this is it’s

1034
00:54:06,519 –> 00:54:13,839
it’s not okay that I’ve gone this long

1035
00:54:08,200 –> 00:54:19,299
without a hug thank you right it’s just

1036
00:54:13,839 –> 00:54:21,700
it’s amazing how um I think hopeful yeah

1037
00:54:19,299 –> 00:54:28,390
how much they know about themselves with

1038
00:54:21,700 –> 00:54:32,109
people who listen right right yeah yeah

1039
00:54:28,390 –> 00:54:33,989
so you Mary are doing a group around one

1040
00:54:32,109 –> 00:54:37,539
of my very favorite parenting groups

1041
00:54:33,989 –> 00:54:40,180
no drama discipline do you want to tell

1042
00:54:37,539 –> 00:54:46,089
us a little bit about that group yeah

1043
00:54:40,180 –> 00:54:47,979
we’re doing a parenting group and using

1044
00:54:46,089 –> 00:54:51,339
the no drama discipline workbook which

1045
00:54:47,979 –> 00:54:53,440
is working on like you’re looking at

1046
00:54:51,339 –> 00:54:56,069
your triggers as a parent you’re looking

1047
00:54:53,440 –> 00:54:58,900
on what’s I can’t and was it won’t

1048
00:54:56,069 –> 00:55:03,190
you’re really focusing on a tuning to

1049
00:54:58,900 –> 00:55:05,140
brain states and its really the group

1050
00:55:03,190 –> 00:55:08,140
really gives parents a chance to be as

1051
00:55:05,140 –> 00:55:10,299
human as humanly possible and really

1052
00:55:08,140 –> 00:55:11,259
work examples so like this occurred and

1053
00:55:10,299 –> 00:55:13,410
then if we’re applying these skills

1054
00:55:11,259 –> 00:55:15,760
exactly what it looks like

1055
00:55:13,410 –> 00:55:18,870
and the parents do a really beautiful

1056
00:55:15,760 –> 00:55:21,580
job of taking care of each other and

1057
00:55:18,870 –> 00:55:24,400
they’re noticing like I tried this tool

1058
00:55:21,580 –> 00:55:25,690
and this part worked in this part didn’t

1059
00:55:24,400 –> 00:55:28,240
and people are just like cheering them

1060
00:55:25,690 –> 00:55:30,160
on so they get that reparative

1061
00:55:28,240 –> 00:55:32,920
experience of I mean you’re not exactly

1062
00:55:30,160 –> 00:55:34,720
parenting in front of people but like

1063
00:55:32,920 –> 00:55:36,520
you get to make a parenting mistake in

1064
00:55:34,720 –> 00:55:41,020
public and people just think you’re

1065
00:55:36,520 –> 00:55:43,480
phenomenal I love that and I love no

1066
00:55:41,020 –> 00:55:45,460
drama discipline I feel like it’s one of

1067
00:55:43,480 –> 00:55:48,520
the few things out there that really

1068
00:55:45,460 –> 00:55:53,740
does effectively work really well for

1069
00:55:48,520 –> 00:55:56,380
kids that do not have necessarily a lot

1070
00:55:53,740 –> 00:55:59,140
of adverse experiences behind them and

1071
00:55:56,380 –> 00:56:02,800
for kids who do have a lot of adverse

1072
00:55:59,140 –> 00:56:05,380
experiences and I feel like that is a

1073
00:56:02,800 –> 00:56:08,830
really rare thing because there’s often

1074
00:56:05,380 –> 00:56:11,560
it’s because it’s brain state based and

1075
00:56:08,830 –> 00:56:14,200
and encouragement based that’s the other

1076
00:56:11,560 –> 00:56:17,320
thing I love about it and it’s you know

1077
00:56:14,200 –> 00:56:21,760
really works on cultivating the yes

1078
00:56:17,320 –> 00:56:24,490
brain and having a receptive brain and I

1079
00:56:21,760 –> 00:56:26,950
I think that that’s so that’s another

1080
00:56:24,490 –> 00:56:30,340
huge important thing that know for sure

1081
00:56:26,950 –> 00:56:35,640
so I feel like I could talk to you

1082
00:56:30,340 –> 00:56:39,040
forever I know um thank you so much Mary

1083
00:56:35,640 –> 00:56:42,690
okay artis Ben okay I’ll talk to you

1084
00:56:39,040 –> 00:56:42,690
later bye

Extraordinary Parenting for out-of-the-box kids Video Podcast

Episode 3 with Mary Russell, LMHC with The Suquamish Tribe, Suquamish Washington