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Natalie I’m super excited to have you joining me as we are known each other for quite some time now I would love it if you would give us a little bit of background about your career first of all
Natalie:
Sure I’m glad to be here and with you Tif. I wish it was in person but this is the next best thing so I’m a clinical psychologist and I’ve known I wanted to do that for quite some time when I started in my graduate program I study typical child development in very focused on Child Development and autism spectrum disorder and part way through my graduate school career I became a parent. So my husband and I adopted a little boy who was 8 just about 9 years old at the time he came to live with us and he had a history of trauma and high-trauma needs so trauma was that thing that other people did other psychologists and I referred clients if they came to me for that reason I work with typical Child Development where everything is rainbows and butterflies and nothing terrible ever happens to children so I all the sudden had this little guy in my home and didn’t any knowledge or information on what to do if you know of course there’s no instruction booklet as many of you know so I really quickly had to learn about trauma and I jumped into this world from a parent perspective first and my graduate program then sort of lead me in that direction and my internship part of it was spent in an inpatient Hospital facility working with kiddos who were part of the juvenile justice system and most of those adolescent had histories of trauma so I learned a lot about trauma intellectually at that point and I still always thought that as a clinical psychologist working primarily with children and development that I would not continue to use trauma work in my daily operations. But as we know, trauma is everywhere and I actually use it all the time so here in Houston where the Stewart Center at the Westview School where our Clinic is based, we see a lot of young people with neuro-developmental disorders who also have a trauma history so it’s usually one or the other that brings them in about often both tend to be in the mix and if you know if your parenting a child with high trauma needs there may be a neuro-developmental disorder like autism, ADHD, learning disabilities, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder… things like that in the mix as well so my life’s work at home has helped inform my career and, you know, I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Tif:
So would you like to give a little bit of an explanation about how you and I came to know each other and how we became friends?
Natalie:
Absolutely so Tif was one of the first people I met in the Trauma-Mama world so she was at the time caring for our son so he was in kind of emergency respite with Tif and it was a re-homing situation and he came to live with us we actually just passed our 10th anniversary of having him in our home and so Miss Tif in our house is like an extended family member and we enjoy getting to see her when we do travel to Washington where she now lives to visit my husband’s family so are we got two other boys in our home so I can relate if any of you have been on this Covid-19 break with children it is hard and I’m here to empathize with you about that especially if you have teenage boys you know that the hygiene in the shower and we’re all experiencing that with you.
Tif:
yeah that is that is challenging right now but yes so we definitely have a special connection, our two families, and I think that that’s part of what this whole video podcast thing has been all about is that over the years I have these great connections with people that we’ve made, and I think that people who are more newly doing this getting the opportunity to connect with families that have been doing this for a long time is such an important thing it’s something I definitely wish I had early on and so that’s part of what has made this something that I really wanted to do. I know that we have talked a lot about I’m trying to connect people and that something that through the attachment and Trauma Network which you have also done some work through trying to connect people is is a big thing in trying to support each other and help each other find our way. One of the reasons we did this packet that we have been talking about a lot in the wake of Covid-19 was to try to help families find their footing during this time of increased isolation and decreased social support and support through school and all of that so today’s topic I thought you would be perfect for because of what you do both professionally and because of what you do with your family that topic of collaboration and choice within structure and why that’s so important when you have kids that have had some difficult early experiences some trauma-related needs and I thought that we could just kind of jump right into that because that to me I know in my own parenting transformation has been very very important I used to I really hard to get my kids to comply with the structure I had in place and when I learned that really collaborating with them and bringing them into being a part of creating that structure when I learn to do that I know that we started to find a rhythm and a harmony a lot better. If you want to just start speaking to that idea.
Natalie:
absolutely and I think talking to a lot of veteran families or seeing families who had kiddos with high trauma needs, we do find these things in common and I know our own journey when we have we went from Dual income no kids to eight-year-old we had not parented previously so we were trying to bring him into our grown-up life you know we bought corn dogs and figured that we had done things like right, but it was difficult, and I will never forget the day that we discovered scheduling and the collaborative need for scheduling. We were actually on our way to a family event to have I think I have dinner with my family and [child’s name] was in the back seat and he just had a complete meltdown and he started saying like “you never let me have any control, you never give me any power, and I never know what’s going to happen and I don’t feel right.” so we just trying to talk him through it and figure out what was going on you know how do we solve this problem that sort of ambiguous and all the sudden my husband said “do you need to see a schedule for the day” and he said yes so that is the moment where schedules in our household were born and we’d use them professionally and coached other families to use them just never really thought that it was in need of for our high-trauma kiddo
and it was life changing just to be able to see okay you know I’m going to have meals there’s a bedtime somebody’s looking out for my well-being even things like brushing your teeth that aren’t fun, at least somebody’s got my needs in mind and then we had times on our schedule that for us we called free choice but it’s like the want-to’s… things that we collaboratively decided. so you know here are the things that we need to do: Shower, brush your teeth, homework assignment whatever it was and then what are the things that you want to do that are important to you and those sometimes look like cooking TV shows, board games, Nerf wars, we had bad weather drills, we had intruder drills we were very flexible on what that want-to side looked like we learned really quickly that “no” is not always the most helpful word so the third piece… The Someday List, we didn’t have that name for it but we would you know say things like well that’s a great idea to do on a rainy day or to do after we’ve saved several thousand dollars depending what the what the request was so in the packet it’s nicely organized and laid out for new families to be able to have a holding place for all the things that are important to the parents all the things that are important to the children and then those wishes and dreams that we can’t wait for, are difficult to wait for but won’t be on our schedule today or tomorrow.
Tif:
Right and I think you’re hitting on such an important thing there… and the way that I would explain that is that for our kids what we found was a couple of things when I listed out I thought when my kids were were little that it was really clear to me that if we didn’t have a schedule we would have complete mayhem right so I would put together a schedule but what I found was this complete resistance against that schedule it was like you telling me everything
that I am going to do is not something that I can buy into, that I can be okay with. That just feels like power-over. So being able to shift and and be collaborative and so that’s where that need-to want-to list came in it was like what can you have control over and how can we work together so that what needs to get done gets gets done and what you want to do you can also get done and I think learning together to balance those two out is such a huge part of learning to not have an adversarial relationship with a child that experienced trauma.
Natalie:
Right, and for me, having an 8 year old, I thought of things like we’re going to brush teeth twice a day just like the dentist wants and we’re going to floss and we’re going to… very quickly you know brushing teeth once a day… I hope there are no dentists in the audience… but we had to go with what works, and when I work with families that’s what I tell them is we have to meet this child where they are. That may look like 10 minutes of reading you know you might have to say I’m super sorry reading teacher but we could not complete your 40 minute reading assignment we did 10 minutes and that was the best of our ability last night that was the best we can do so there does have to be that give and take and that compromise because a lot of times these kiddos have been in situations where they’ve been completely out of control and powerless and any inkling of that feeling coming back to them is going to trigger behaviors or meltdowns, or shutdowns that just aren’t conducive to the household or learning you know nothing really good comes with that.
Tif:
Something that just came back to me that I remember talking to you about early on I remember something that you said and it was already a part of something that we were doing but it was so great to hear it from you because it was just so affirming I remember talking to you once and you telling me about talking to a teacher and saying I’m sorry in our house relationships come first like I remember you saying that you want to talk a little bit about that?
Natalie:
absolutely so I think I’ve also been an educator at The Westview School, I’d come from a family of educators I think highly of educators and I can’t imagine experience this Covid experience without all of the work and dedication that teachers have put into maintaining structure for our kids who aren’t in school that’s really been incredible and they know that kids come from different places and are at different levels in the class period, But I do I think that sometimes when homework demands are too big and too overwhelming it can dictate the schedule for not just a child but for the entire household and we often need to get some freedom from that and you know break away and empower parents to let teachers know you know, some families want more reading, that’s fine, great, send those families more reading. And other families, even when the child may need more reading, they might not be capable of doing it especially at home if their brains aren’t in a state for learning so should really optimize the child’s learning long-term you have to develop the relationships at home we have to get the behavior regulated at home, get the child regulated so that they can be in a state for Learning and sometimes that does look like telling the teacher you know I’m really sorry we tried this was our best effort relationships and regulation come first and then we’ll keep trying tomorrow we’ll keep trying every day thanks for your understanding.
Tif:
Exactly, and what I have found with my kids is that it’s all about whatever season we’re in right now you know like right now especially and I think the teachers and Educators and and schools and the education system as a whole right now has been really amazing about recognizing the need for relationship right now I think under these circumstances especially right now. I think there’s a recognition that relationships are super important right now and I’m so grateful for that. Because I know for us there have been periods of time where our kids have been kind of going through something
or just been a little more dysregulated for whatever reason and we’ve had to say okay we’re going to have to back off focusing on math or whatever for a little while and we’re going to have to put more attention and focus into relationship and we’re going to take a deep breath and we’re going to recognize that once we’ve given attention there that catching up actually comes really easy for our kids. is that something that you see?
Natalie:
Absolutely and especially if those teachers and other caregivers are understanding in those situations it further strengthens their relationship in their trust with the child so I’ve never had a problem then with kids working really hard for that teacher that understood. you know when the teacher puts the product above the relationship and the well-being and with best intentions in mind but you know if they don’t have that knowledge, you find that the child or the adolescent is going to be more resistant to performing for that teacher in the future, but they really take time to say you know hey I want that for you to I want you to feel good I want you to feel safe I want you to be regulated let me know when is it better time or let me know when you’re feeling better I find that those kids you know those are the ones that will then go above and beyond or that teacher or that family member that caregiver when that collaboration is offered to them it’s just a huge trust-building factor.
Tif:
Right the other thing I think is that sometimes the stress and pressure in my own experience anyway can come from me as a parent like I really want to be where everybody else is, and I want us to be fitting in and and that stress and pressure gets to me and I feel like I get to that point where I’m like okay we are we are finally fitting into the norm you know like we are like right there fitting into the norm so if we can just you know get the math done or if we can just stay on level… I think that that pressure getting to us too is something that we have to really watch carefully. I know that I have had to watch that carefully as a parent and I don’t know if the parents that you work with fall into that or if that’s something that you work with.
Natalie:
Absolutely and I liken it to a family with a preschooler when the teacher may say you know your child’s cutting skills are behind, their scissor skills. And when you have a child in preschool that’s a big deal their cutting skills are behind what if they go to first grade and they can’t cut like everyone else will they be made fun of them will they graduate how are they ever going to be employed they won’t be able to cut. But if we can just encourage those parents and ourselves to take a step back and think you know this is scissor skills there so many more important things in life and I don’t mean to undermine what the teacher is saying but we always take it with a grain of salt and think okay so this is a really big deal in pre-K we can get some occupational therapy we can make cuttings fun at home we can work on it you know have fun while we’re while we’re trying to build these skills ultimately we all have the cards that we’re dealt. I know some very wonderful well-adjusted, happy adults who aren’t great with their cutting skills. So just taking that step back and realizing that it isn’t the end-all be-all and for older kids in Milestones like getting a driver’s license at 16 moving out or going to college at 18 sometimes those Milestones looming can be tough for us as parents when when our kids aren’t there with everybody else’s kids but it’s okay we have to meet people where they are that allow them to have that opportunity to accomplish those things and then we made accommodations for those things that you know are weaknesses like cutting skills.
Tif:
Right one of the things I wanted to mention just because I know that a lot of the families I work with her are having this specific issue right now are transition and I know lots of us our kids have difficulty with transitions anyway but right now during this time it feels like all of us are going through major transitions all the time where we’re going back to work we’re not going back to work we’re going back to school or not going back to school it’s all up in the air for all of us, and what I’m noticing is that parents and kids are having a really tough time managing transitions more than ever so the parents that are going back to work are saying you know their kids are really having difficulty with them going back to work and there’s a lot of resistance and that kind of stuff. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Natalie:
Yeah, so transitions are really tough for this group of kiddos right, transitions in the past have led to harmful outcomes, losses, complete changes and disorganization in their life so small transitions even things as little as a substitute teacher can really throw these kids off and we’re talking about life transitions right now that are way bigger than that, so the first time my oldest had a substitute was his worst day of school and he’s always been very articulate and was able to talk about that we said you know your teacher was sick she’s allowed a sick day and he said “she left me, she didn’t tell me she was leaving” he was mad at her so I can only imagine for kiddos now who I mean none of us knew we weren’t going back none of us knew we weren’t going to get to say goodbye to our teacher our classmates and for parents right now there’s a lot of uncertainty in the job market, there’s a lot of uncertainty with childcare for summer or going forward with our kids are going to be doing online learning over the summer or in the fall can we keep our jobs as scheduled? Do we need to make major life alterations that are going to affect our income have our lives been unexpectedly shaken and our income is altered. Those are things that rock our sense of safety and if our sense of safety is rocked or off-kilter our kids are going to pick up on that. They’re hypersensitive. Covid itself is something that rocks our sense of safety right if you just turn on a television or have access to the internet kids are going to see the threat to their safety in the threat to safety of others in the world so keeping it in perspective I think is really important you know helping them understand that things like Covid-19 are rare. The fact that someone gets so sick that they need to go to the hospital for something like that is rare. It can happen, but it’s not likely to happen to us because we’re taking precautions, because kids seem to be a little more protected from Covid, so just helping them understand and keep that in perspective, but also with our jobs, our workplace, our schools, we’re real good at talking the problems, the transitions or the things we’re afraid of but we’re not always very intentional about talking about possible solutions. So, that reassurance at the end of every statement, like oh gosh, I don’t even know if you’re going to be going back to school in August. But then letting them know that you don’t know what school is going to look like in August, we do know that you’re going to be safe and cared for and we’re going to make sure you keep learning because that’s what Mom and Dad are here to do so making sure that there is some sense of safety when we’re talking about transitions I think is also really important maintaining that security for these kids is critical if we’re talking about financial problems or differences in income letting them know, honey no matter what happens we’re still going to take care of you we’re always going to be able to feed you, We’re always going to be able to keep you living here or to live in a safe place with you so that they know and these children might need to be told that a little more explicitly then children who haven’t had their sense of safety rocked like these high trauma kids have.
Tif:
Soothing the nervous system continually soothing the nervous system for our kids that have those hyperactive threat responses so, so important.
Natalie:
And it’s a great life still for them to they will learn through our modeling, through our teaching then they’ll be able to internalize those skills and hopefully do it for themselves as they’re adults just like we do for ourselves. You know, what’s going to come of my life, or my job, or my family then we were able to talk ourselves through you know I’m not really sure but it’s gonna be okay.
Tif:
Which is the next point that I was going to make his that the importance of… I think that the way our kids respond to this that is going on is directly correlated to how we are responding to it so if we are calm and we are soothing ourselves and if we’re taking care of ourselves the way we need to take care of ourselves so that we are not constantly in that threat response then our affect is going to be contagious and they are going to then feel what we are feeling but when we are not… so whatever we need to do to manage our re-entry in those transitions I think that’s really important too.
Natalie:
Absolutely and whatever that looks like in each household may differ, whether it’s a tag-teaming between adults, and it doesn’t even have to be a partner you can be a single parent and tag team with other adults who are caregivers to be able to take that break to keep regulated and it’s so important even to model that for our kids so our kids have seen in some cases, poor behavior modeled or what happens when people don’t take the breaks they need. T
here is no shame in letting a child know, you know I am so stressed I have to go take a break I need to go take a walk around the block and calm down before we talk more about this and modeling that for our kids is huge also it helps us stay more present if we do what we need to do to be calm and regulated we can be more present and available for our kids and that is key. If we’re just going through the motions and I think you know everybody will know what I’m talking about when they say go going through the motions sort of uh-huh, yeah and not really making eye contact, not getting on the floor with a young kid, not really getting interested in your adolescent’s interest, there’s that distance that sort of grows between you and these kids with high trauma needs are hypersensitive to that they are going to spiral when they feel it. Whatever we have to do as adults to be regulated to make eye contact, to share a genuine smile, so really have fun on the same level with those “wants” letting go of some of those “needs” and dealing with some of those “want-tos” In my opinion the want-tos are as important as the need-tos.
Tif:
Yeah. I think that’s so important to point out. And another thing back to the transitions, one of the things I’ve been suggesting to families is with older kids in particular is if you know that you’re coming back from being out in the world coming home from being out in the world right now carries a higher level of stress than it used to because you’re out there with the germs right and you’re coming back home and when you’re coming back home if you need a minute if you know you’re going to need a minute to get re-centered and be okay if you don’t have it in you to walk in and be like “hello family” like you used to that’s okay especially if you have older kids and you’re able to talk to them about what your re-entry plan is going to be and so they know what to expect so that they are taking that as a rejection because what I’m seeing is that a lot of older kids, their parents are not able to give them what they used to when they are coming back home and they are experiencing that as a rejection but if you tee it up and frame it so that they know, they can actually help with the re-entry, it’s actually been really empowering for them.
Natalie:
I was just thinking the same like offering them a role in that an offering and this is what I have to do when I come home or I need to go change clothes… and even outside of Covid, you know there are some people that need to come home change clothes, decompress and then they’re ready to put their game face on. Which if you’re parenting, you know it takes effort and energy and that’s fine and I agree completely being transparent with children about those things helps them feel safe. If we’re faking and pretending and trying to appease them they’re going to catch on to that and I’m telling you even the kiddos who are supposed to have some social difficulties like those on the autism spectrum or who have some symptoms there, they’re still hyper sensitive to that perceived rejection and I’ve been having some families dealing with it as well when they have some kids in school and some not in school so especially this week and in the next few weeks where schools are letting out at different days or times but also if they you know how college students at home or older adult children at home and they’re doing school at the table with the younger kids and the older one is feeling left out even just, of course they’re welcome to join and inviting them to join you know you don’t have to do your school work in your bedroom you can come do it at the table with us. “I don’t want to” might be the result that you get, but just that open invitation. “We just wanted you to know that you’re welcome here and love seeing your face” and letting them know… creating some time in the schedule to have one-on-one time with each kid, and with each adult who are in different groups I think is also essential knew that something that your family did and talk to us about as well but I think I can help ease transitions too so we’re getting less of each other and we’re all sad about that right we are going back to school I’m going back to work and it was fun to spend so much time together I want to keep spending time with you so let’s have special time it’s just for us it would you like to do that on a Friday or Saturday? So handing them some choice and some control over and and letting the child be involved in what we do there so we’re sort of trading in this lots of together time or some special time that we can do on a weekly basis.
Tif:
Right, that’s great, and I wanted to talk a little bit about… like in my family, it really never worked for us to have a schedule that was we do this at this time we do this at this time we do this at this time it really did help for us to do it with our kids specifically and I think every family is different I really do for us at work to go okay so it’s really important to you to have a lot of control over when you do your chosen thing so if you do 30 minutes of something on your need-to list then then you’ll get to do 30 minutes of something on your want-to list so that’s how we did it because it kept it very even, very fair. My kids were very very focused on “fair” and so that felt very fair for them. You want to talk about some other ways?
Natalie:
Yeah, I think you nailed it with fairness. so the perception of fairness and I think that’s important. THE PERCEPTION of fairness because I might have two cookies and one is broken and one child sees that is two cookies vs 1 cookie, now I as the adult know they’re the same but it doesn’t matter what I as the adult know. What matters is that child’s perception so the perception of fairness is hugely important and when we know that there’s going to be something perceived as unfair or could be perceived as unfair I think talking about it beforehand is important so we have kids that have different activities opening at different times you know your karate student might be able to go back to karate before your ballet student can go back to ballet and that is not fair. So being able to discuss it and talk about it and what you hit on with the schedule is as well… I often tell people, do not put times on the schedule. So times on the schedule set you up and the child up for failure because what you’re going to be teaching then, well at least if it were my house, what we’d be teaching is that we’re chronically late we put things on our schedule we don’t do we skip things on the schedule and we just accomplish what we want to and leave the rest off. Those aren’t really great life skills so being able to leave times off and keep it very flexible the only thing that should ever have a Time on the schedule if you have a child that it worries about the future or needs to know when things happen might be something with set in stone like School your school happens from 8:30 to 3. Then at 3 you’ll see Mom you’ll come home to letting them know who’s going to pick them up sometimes those things can be important but I completely agree on the areas where we have flex leaving the time off you know maybe even not even counting on the order sometimes we’re having so much fun playing a game that dinner is going to be late maybe you don’t even write down what is for dinner because you don’t know right if you get caught in a game it might change from chicken cordon bleu’s that are homemade to corn dogs.
Transcription still being edited below:
so leaving that flex time where we can also be teaching our kids that the things that we put out that we want to do and that we need to do or things that we actually do you know and all of us have list like that so I have my need to do list app includes the groceries the floor the dishes that I’m not going to accomplish all of those in one day this is my needs you I’m going to pick something from here and then I’m going to reward myself with something more fun so that’s a very suitable life skill that will get our kids are that we can bottle for them and teach them and help engage them in and of course it changes depending on how many kids you have and what those kids specific issues it are because I know some kids like they need to know exactly what we’re having for dinner at exactly what time we’re having it and exactly what hole is going to be in and all of the things but you know the general idea is flexibility within this structure collaboration within the structure as being a way to make sure the kids feel like it’s power with instead of power over that’s really the spirit of it for me anyway that’s where I come from with it and I think that that’s what I think is so important for kids when they have that it’s really important for them to feel like they have power with their their safety caregiver encourage them to come back to you as a caregiver I know when they need help when they are facing uncertainty in life when they’re in I’m not sure how to plan for classes or organize or pick up their room that they’ll come and and you’ll find the battle starts kicking you out for more and more because they trust you I wanted to just say before we go to the next thing that there might be people that have questions if you do have questions how should we do that tasted they type it in if you have questions and you want to just raise your hand I’m happy to wear happy to call on you if anyone has questions will be watching let me know Jay but we’ll go back to this topic I wanted to say going back to you that old safety security collaboration and having fun I think that’s the other thing is just making sure that the day together isn’t just about I know for my kids it had to be fun getting things done together had to be fun if it wasn’t fun then that’s when I had that total resistance right and I think about what works for us as adults to you if we went to work and had a boss that was a complete Taskmaster and just you know this is what you’re going to do in by this date and time that wouldn’t be a very rewarding or fulfilling job it would be hard to feel proud of your own work it would be hard to develop relationships at work and it would be so that’s true for kids to and I’m a big fan of working while we play and playing while we work so it also is going to encourage kids to not eat as deterred by the list is it need to list should not be a list of like awful terrible bad things to be avoided these are just things that we need to accomplish they need to be on our radar so we’re going to pick one from here and one from here and that makes a good balance is no reason why on your knee to list if you have to fold laundry or sort laundry that that can’t be fun play basketball while getting laundry to the washing machine or into the washing machine when you fold it you can have races tell Fulton races and you can also be on teams with your child in things like racing so that it doesn’t amp up the competition because I know we can’t always do competitive things with these kids sometimes that comes in way later but working additively together to beat your own time let’s see how fast we can blow this picture and racing to beat your own time so as a team working together working with we can have lots of fun even picking up a room and I think sometimes on first listen things like that sounds like oh yeah that would be great if we had all the time in the world but what I have found is that actually that get the stairway faster then the whole idea of your going to do this and you’re going to do it because it’s the rule and because I said it’s the rule and because that’s the way it’s going to go because that is what brings my kids to a screeching halt race and I completely agree with you in the getting there faster so right it does take a minute to maybe get the parent regulated and get that game days of okay because we can’t take it don’t know right so if we’re going to clean the room and have fun that means we genuinely need to have fun right and I can see if I try to convince you how fun it is to clean your room and you see right through me that’s going nowhere we’ve all experienced that have been on the receiving end of that so we really do have to make it fun and sometimes that might look like you going ahead with the need to while your child’s kind of watching you know I’m I’m not sure and I think that’s fine sometimes I’ll even a sign watch her role if they don’t if they’re not regulated all ready to participate so when we have a lot of fun and if you have more than one child if you and one of the children are having fun in the other ones sort of holding out we don’t need to discuss the holding out then offer them a rule let’s see how fast we can do the socks you want to help we got to do what we got to beat our time or you can get them involved in just keep moving forward yeah I think I think too the whole idea of a man. I just left what I was going to say I was at was waiting to ask you a question then I lost it the it’s going to come back to me I know I hate when I do that can you talk a little bit more about the transition for little ones maybe something fun to do with a littler kids sure and look at that question to transitioning to something you I think that when transitioning to something new I’m assuming we’re talking about kiddos who might be resistant or scared of something new and I think being with them on their level and like chips talked about talking to them about it so we might as we’re going through that the schedule together and we’re collaborating on what the day looks like we’re transitioning to something new that they’ve never done before he even if it’s supposed to be a fun activities like going to dinner with your families parents were going to a birthday party or a going ice skating it could be really overwhelming and challenging for kiddos who have a hard time with transitions so we want to just a dress that right out of the gate I’ve always found that if we Uber prepare we don’t end up having problems and you may even feel like oh gosh I think we were prepared for that but you probably avoided Problems by over preparing and I was always shocked by not for during some of the little things I thought would I wouldn’t have thought I needed to prepare the child for that results in an epic meltdown so preparing means talking about it in advance of this weekend there’s a birthday party and it’s going to look like this yours where it’s going to be this is what’s expected I’m I love the idea of informational stories to help kids get a sense of what their what knowledge they need or what information they need about a new activity or in using that’s going to be going on and inviting them do you have any worries about that what’s awesome feeling do you have about that so to try to get their input let’s try to address their fears you know I know for my oldest he was afraid he was going to make it an inappropriate joke in the airport going to the airport for the first time was a really big deal and he was afraid like what if he made a joke about bombs would he be arrested so we talked about that a lot with pictures in the airport which I was a little afraid of being arrested myself when I was take but every child’s going to have different fears or different insecurities about transitions about something new but if we can help them articulate we can help when we can’t articulate it some of the kids maybe pre-verbal right or they they may have other conditions that limit their verbal expression then we take our best guesses and worst case scenario we’re wrong you know they’ll tell us right there was a pretty good at telling us when we’re so we take our best guess as you know I was thinking you might be worried about this new trip or this new person that we’re going to be needing I’m so I wanted to talk to you about it would freeze at the way it is it’s that’s our thought about it we don’t know if we’re wrong know Noah was there something you are worried about did I miss it you know I was thinking my best guess sometimes that’ll help encourage sort of reluctant children to speak up about their concerns thank you so much for that question and then the other eye what I was going to add on to that that with little ones especially little ones who have experienced trauma experience separation and that kind of thing I would I always do if there is if it’s going to be something new that is away from their primary caregiver even if you think they are old and how old enough and past this I always send something of yours with them since something of their caregivers with them because you is surprising to me how old kids still that is still helpful for them I found anyway how about you. And we’ve also done like picture sometimes so taking end and that works for old ones as well because they can been in here is to show people you meet family so it is and I think it doesn’t matter how old they get things are still issues in my house that I’m just actually in in talking with you about this webinar we realized you know we haven’t outgrown these things and in fact we may need to increase our structure in some areas and predictability in some areas and fall back to this need to lunch ideas so we were in I’m just noticing like I need you to come out here I need you to do this I need you know you guys aren’t doing enough we’ll wait we can squash that we know how to squash that yeah so they they don’t they don’t get too old for it for a long time it’s it is surprising how and then also the other thing I was going to suggest with the is managing the transitions with rituals you know having just this is the thing we do always when you’re coming home from this new thing or we’re going to this new thing you know there’s going to be this thing that you leave right here so it’ll be waiting for you the minute that you get back in the car all of that stuff that we do with really tiny like toddlers is really helpful for kids that are older too I think definitely and some little ones need clean up rituals because we’re leaving one fun activity or something even if it’s another fun activity just the transition can be hard so you don’t think about what what works if it’s working in the classroom or in preschool talk to the teacher they may have songs or rituals are transition routines that you can just Implement at home that your child’s already familiar with vice versa you know you may have her if you’re hearing that your child struggling with transitions at school or in childcare I’m letting them know what is working for you at home and if nothing’s working in either place is it still good to open the conversation because whoever find something that works we got to tell the other one I remembered the thing I was going to ask you before I wanted to ask me top we have talked quite a lot about the kind of crossover and differences between caring and support for kids that have better on the autism spectrum and kids with trauma related me so I think that there is there do you feel like you could go into that topic a little bit because that is a that is something that I see a lot absolutely so and I see this at home as well as my middle child is on the autism spectrum and had a long history of neglect and Trauma as well and then my my day job working primarily with students on the autism spectrum our Clinic is in a school to Westview School in Houston that’s for children with autism spectrum disorder I’m so I do have a lot of background and not in some of the differences and overlaps that I see one on children on the autism spectrum or with any neuro developmental differences tend to be the research tells us more likely to be traumatized than typically developing children and we also know that children who experience High trauma are likely to have a neurodevelopmental disorder ADHD a learning disability do we have that overlap which makes a lot of us parenting both parts children on the autism spectrum may have a history of, that is the way you’re bleeding can be highly traumatic so we maybe didn’t experience on it early lives or turmoil or caregiver changes but they may be experiencing Bullock you know from peers or or staff even and that can be highly traumatic they could take or sense Trauma from something that didn’t cause trauma to other people like a car accident you know a single incident type trauma so that does cause a lot of overlap in the field in the treatment aspects of Juicy some differences so the children on the autism spectrum often tend to enjoy higher structure so like you were saying they may want to know what’s for dinner what color plate what time is that going to her and you better not be a minute late either for a lot of reasons you’re going to write down that time in that color of those things had better be available going to be some conversation to Miracast it in that color Astilbe Austin will appreciate the higher structure you know not just tolerate the higher structure but almost wanted seek it out feel more comfortable in that level of structure where the children who are not on the autism spectrum may need more space to find their own wings and and be more in control of the schedule and prefer a more collaborative more flexible ever-evolving type schedule yes yes absolutely more choice where his choice could could be something that shuts down someone on the Spectrum too many choices could be a problem right or not how do I make that choice I don’t there’s got to be a right choice I don’t know if I want milk or water for dinner why would you ask me that I how do I even know what to pick please just decide so knowing the child I think is so important and that’s why I even as a professional I can come in with the tools that have worked for many families but that’s not my child when I’m sleeping with someone and I require the parents should wear the caregivers to be the expert on that child and only together can our ideas work and I think that’s really integral in working with families to because a lot of these families have been told well if it’s not working you must be doing something wrong consistency were you know if you were only more consistent than you would have less behavior problems and I find it a lot of the families that I work with that just simply isn’t true they have a different kind of a child with a different kind of need that we have to accommodate for is so so so important knowing how to read your child they have read their stuff and being able to meet them where they are and see where they where they need choice and where they need structure and where they need nurture and where they need it’s just so important right absolutely and I meant that goes right back to my child development days because it it’s on us know that something that parents and incense do very naturally and when you know chair covers holding an infant in the infant’s fussing the caregiver changes facial expressions to match that infants facial expression together they come out at the sadness and into a happier state so that kind of cool regulation that can only come from that Attunement needs to happen with our children sometimes when they’re much older know sometimes even teams still so we have to have a player on the team at least one who’s really good with that Attunement and that’s often times where I can turn to the families and use what they know about the child or sometimes we need to coach families and help them to become more at you choose their child state so that they even can join with them the other and we can go regulate but we can always go regulate before we can self-regulate exactly and for our kids that did not get that in those early days just that I know that for me a huge part of my transformation as a parent was understanding that co-regulation is the pathway to self regulation and that my kids with their highly sensitized nervous systems and hyperactive threat response we’re going to need me to co regulate with them for way way longer than we would think a child might need that then we really think is developmentally appropriate my daughter is 21 years old and she still calls me to correct and I think that that’s such an important thing to know about trauma-related knees that really when you come right down to it they do need that a regulation for much much longer and the truth is we all need for regulating sometimes that’s right that’s right and I don’t know any self Regulators who didn’t first who regulate it is absolutely the stuff that comes first and if we don’t need that that young person where they are in terms of the regulating they won’t be able to self regulate effectively so whatever that looks like and you know working in a school where we’re big on promoting Independence of the children and that looks different for every young person you know there may be a child that you need to hold and rock that seems beyond and then the self-regulation comes with your parents of typical kids are kids who haven’t been through traumatic experiences when they’re little one falls down they get up and they look at mom or dad likes should I cry in a should I be crying now and if you say you’re okay go play go play if that is a regulation on the path to self regulation that is so Advanced that child might be 12 feet away and was able to just glanced at the facial expression and then run off and have a good time playing it might take our kids longer to get there and if you’re not at that touchless regulation that’s okay I’m rocked hug soothe a golfer walk for an older child is fair or fare vs. into being touched something to get us in a rhythm in a pattern to where we can then start doing that for more of a distance like you’re saying yeah absolutely we all do that even as adults a lot of us use our parents are friends are Partners to co regulate that’s right next week we’re going to be talking about regulation with James Daniel who I think you probably know through ATN probably I don’t know that it will go into that unit and the regulation and self-regulation really will have a conversation about all of that next week 2 I think that. So that is so at the core of a really it’s at the corner of State dependent functioning which I think understanding state-dependent functioning for kids that experienced early trauma is hugely hugely important in caring for them properly and I think that that’s what you’re talking about when you’re talking about that as soon minute and ability to co regulate with them and the knowledge that it’s just going to take them longer you know and that that’s okay right absolutely you know what your pancreas needs insulin to keep your blood sugar balance that’s okay if you need medication for blood pressure to keep your heart regulated that’s okay so in any of these other Realms we wouldn’t even think twice about is this okay but because of the social expectations it it can make us Wonder question are we doing what we need to be doing prettiest kiddos and we are you know it has to be collaborative and it has to start at their level where they’re ready and even the want to need to that’s a cool regulatory you just stuck 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + for our kids to adopt his inspection who may have a higher need for structure even if you’re planning out the whole day in a structured schedule you’re going to need to alternate from the kind of need to in the want to so we we have to keep that that regulation in mind throwing everything that we’re doing and the best way to regulate is collaboratively for the population going back to the the difference and similarities between the it’s related stuff I think that one of the just similarities is that sensitize nervous system right there that they just both have be sensitized system and what they really fit with that to regulation and that collaborative sort of you know stuff does for them is to create sort of a rhythm that for the day that doesn’t exist sort of easily within them that they really need help to establish that ongoing Rhythm to get that to be the norm for the yes yes and so I have kids where they are you know they have difficulty been coming up with the want to and if that’s something that’s happening so what I always think about what is the internal process that I want to see happening or that would help this child and how can I externalize it so that we can model it and teach it so if they can’t come up with either they have a sense of his nervous system and they’re on the autism spectrum and they don’t know what they want to do you know play can be really hard for those kids relaxation can be really hard so we create like a choice box and index cards I like love index cards and post it notes and a dry erase board and Bubbles that’s my therapeutic battery maybe we have a brainstorming session for what are some want to lose what are some fun things that we could do during want to and if they can’t come up with something you know maybe a child has difficulty making choices might want to draw what if I don’t want to do that one another teaching that practice that we go through but sometimes when these little brains are wired differently because of trauma or because of Developmental differences but things that we take for granted might not be as easy and we might have to explicitly teach them or model them for this right well I like that weed I feel like we can talk for another hour but I will wrap up here but I wanted to say at first of all I’m definitely planning on having you back and your husband Ben is going to be back another time too so we will definitely have you back again and I look forward to that and hopefully lots of times and nothing thank you so much for being here and it’s so good to get time to talk to you and thank you everybody that was here I guess do we anybody anything last minute before we jump off from the call will give it just a second here I see so much thank you I’ve been using it already with families and and talking to families about it so I I love that we just have these these things that we talked about and think about explicitly where people can access them and also on our website we had a resource from Natalie and that will be talking about at another time we’ve already put your game stuff you want to mention that you’re working while we play in playing while we work and turning games into thoughtful intentional productive ways of working with our kids and we can talk about that through the egg Andy Williams one of my favorite to use for young kiddos I’m kind of a board game nerd but we can talk all the way on the upper end for Settlers of Catan and you know games that are more advanced are adolescents and I need some help learning how to be gracious winners and losers because let’s face it we encounter that a lot in life and if we can be gracious winners and losers and board games that is going to get us through a lot of situations in life yes it does and I cannot wait for that topic that is going to be fun we are all major board game people in our family so that’s going to be a lot of fun I can’t wait for that but they but we already have the resources at on our website so people can access it now 20 play games with kids do you have difficulty losing thank you so much Natalie and I see somebody posted up there I love Natalie and I do to say hello to your whole family for me and thank you so much will doing likewise thank you guys hey thanks bye-bye everybody will see
